Mint error in US mint proof set? 0

[Newbie_7]

Hello Everyone,

I just recieved a 2021 US American Innovation Dollar proof set.  I bought it direct from the US mint.  The dollars are in the correct orientation when I looked at the front but when I turned it over the coin for New Hampshire is side ways in relation to the the orientation of the other coins.  Could the planchet somehow turned side ways before it was stamped?  

Thank you,

Jonathan 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Newbie_7
bad grammer

[Coinbuf]

Not an error, just the way that coin was designed.   You could have very easily done a google search and found this out for yourself.   I am not saying that to be mean simply that you could have found your answer in less time than it took you to take photos and compose your post.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Coinbuf

[EagleRJO]

Yup, that is exactly how my US Mint 2021 Innovation $1 Reverse Proof Set looks, as well as the individual NH [2021-S] proof coin.

Not that the OPs coin is a rotated die, but I heard from a whispering bird that the official US Mint tolerance on a rotated die is 7 degrees (unconfirmed with no luck verifying).  According to the Coin World Almanac mint employees consider coins with a die rotation of 5 degrees or less to be within tolerance.  And that even beyond that, there is little added value unless the rotation is greater than 45 degrees using the errors price guide.

Maybe @RWB could shed a little light on the official die rotation tolerance and source.

Edited September 5, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Newbie_7]

There is only 6 degrees or less for Kevin Bacon

[VKurtB]

On 9/1/2022 at 6:01 PM, EagleRJO said:

Yup, that is exactly how my US Mint 2021 Innovation $1 Reverse Proof Set looks, as well as the individual NH proof coin.

Not that the OPs coin is a rotated die, but I heard from a whispering bird that the official US Mint tolerance on a rotated die is 7 degrees (unconfirmed with no luck verifying).  According to the Coin World Almanac mint employees consider coins with a die rotation of 5 degrees or less to be within tolerance.  And that even beyond that, there is little added value unless the rotation is greater than 45 degrees using the errors price guide.

Maybe @RWB could shed a little light on the official die rotation tolerance and source.

For this issue, 90 degrees is exactly correct. It’s a truly dumb design. 

[EagleRJO]

It really does look dumb, particularly when placed in a set with other "normal" $1 coins.

I am still curious if RWB or perhaps someone else can shed some light on the official die rotation tolerance and source for that.

[CaptHenway]

On 9/1/2022 at 6:35 PM, EagleRJO said:

It really does look dumb, particularly when placed in a set with other "normal" $1 coins.

I am still curious if RWB or perhaps someone else can shed some light on the official die rotation tolerance and source for that.

I know nothing about any "official Mint tolerance" for die setup rotations, but I have heard (unofficially, with no documentation) that 15 degrees was close enough for government work. Back in the 1970's error collectors generally considered anything less than 15 degrees to be insignificant.

Curiously, many early Buffalo nickels show die rotation such that if you flip the reverse over top to bottom the date ends up at the 6 o'clock position. I suspect (again, no documentation) that the people setting up dies in coin presses were used to the date being at 6 o'clock (except on the Lincoln cent, of course) and they just automatically set the Buffalo nickel dies in that way out of habit even though the date is offset to the side a bit. I wonder if the early Mercury dimes have the same problem?

[EagleRJO]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:34 AM, CaptHenway said:

...a I have heard (unofficially, with no documentation) that 15 degrees was close enough for government work.

With the 15 degree number you are probably thinking of the cut off below which there is no added value, which is generally not much until the rotation exceeds 45 degrees except for a few coins, mostly proofs and some others like some state quarters discussed here ... Die Rotation on State Quarters (pcgs.com)

A single digit die rotation tolerance would be consistent in term of order of magnitude with other mint tolerances like for weight and diameter, but I just haven't been able to find anything definitive in writing except the 5 degrees stated in Coin World Almanac.

Edited September 5, 2022 by EagleRJO

[CaptHenway]

Which Coin World Almanac do you have, and what page number, please? I worked on the first two issues, long ago in a galaxy far, far away........

[EagleRJO]

On 9/2/2022 at 12:59 PM, EagleRJO said:

... I just haven't been able to find anything definitive in writing except the 5 degrees stated in Coin World Almanac.

On 9/4/2022 at 2:45 PM, CaptHenway said:

Which Coin World Almanac do you have, and what page number, please? I worked on the first two issues, long ago in a galaxy far, far away........

@CaptHenway Coin World Almanac, 8th Edition, Pg 370 under "Rotated Dies".  For other editions maybe check: Chapter 11 Errors, "Die Errors, Varieties, States & Stages" and then "Rotated Dies".

Edited September 4, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Henri Charriere]

[Sorry. I just cannot see buying a coin from the U.S. Mint without knowing the basics about it. Obviously, if I purchase a sheet of those 1918 Air Mail stamps featuring an upside-down Jenny, I know I've got something, even though I don't know exactly what it is. Mint error? Pffft! I would have checked first before crowing 🐓 about it on here.  Oh, and Welcome to the Forum!

[CaptHenway]

I asked Fred Weinberg if he knew of any official mint tolerance on die rotations, and he replied that on tours of both the Philadelphia and Denver Mints he saw signs which said that die rotations may not exceed 27 degrees!

Now, I don't know if the Mint's office in Washington, D.C. would agree in writing that that is their official tolerance, but that is what the Mints are using out in the field.

 

TD

[CaptHenway]

On 9/4/2022 at 12:54 PM, EagleRJO said:

@CaptHenway Coin World Almanac, 8th Edition, Pg 370 under "Rotated Dies".  For other editions maybe check: Chapter 11 Errors, "Die Errors, Varieties, States & Stages" and then "Rotated Dies".

Thanks

[RWB]

This is the only thing found during a quick search.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/5/2022 at 11:48 AM, RWB said:

This is the only thing found during a quick search.

Thanks for looking.  At least that confirms die rotation tolerance is not set by statue.

On 9/5/2022 at 10:11 AM, CaptHenway said:

I asked Fred Weinberg if he knew of any official mint tolerance on die rotations, and he replied that on tours of both the Philadelphia and Denver Mints he saw signs which said that die rotations may not exceed 27 degrees!

Now, I don't know if the Mint's office in Washington, D.C. would agree in writing that that is their official tolerance, but that is what the Mints are using out in the field.

Idk about 27 degrees, maybe something got lost along the line and it was supposed to be 7 degrees, which would make a lot more sense and which I have also heard is the tolerance used.  There is some added value to coins with a rotated die above 15 degrees, and in some cases between 10 and 15 degrees as discussed in the linked PCGS info, with a cataloged III-G-3 rotation error starting at over 15 degrees:

Quote

III-G-3 is a rotated misalignment of 16 to 45 degrees

Quote

Regarding most circulation coins, a misalignment of perhaps 10 to 15 degrees is not enough to bring a premium value. There is so much interest in the Statehood quarters that such a small die rotation error may still bring a pretty good price.

So, for there to be added value for a coin with a 10 to 15 degree die rotation the accepted tolerance would need to be less than 10 degrees, otherwise it's just a normal coin with no added value.

 

[Oldhoopster]

On 9/5/2022 at 10:11 AM, CaptHenway said:

I asked Fred Weinberg if he knew of any official mint tolerance on die rotations, and he replied that on tours of both the Philadelphia and Denver Mints he saw signs which said that die rotations may not exceed 27 degrees!

Now, I don't know if the Mint's office in Washington, D.C. would agree in writing that that is their official tolerance, but that is what the Mints are using out in the field.

 

TD

Mr. Weinberg has posted the 27 degree tolerance more than once on other forums over the last few years.