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Interesting ANA photos from Charmy Harker. Take a look at her convention post.
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61 posts in this topic

On 8/25/2022 at 8:58 AM, RWB said:

Charmy Harker's ANA photo report is interesting and a good "read" ("look" ?) for those who have never attended a large show. There were also many educational presentations not shown, but one person (and her cat) can't do everything! It was disappointing, however, to see so many factual mistakes on the competitive exhibits. With so many modern resources for accurate numismatic information, There has to be real concern when exhibitors continue to use ancient copy-cat material, or than anyone would claim there were "1921 special proof" coins.

1921 SP for Peace Dollars or Saints ?

I just think that most dealers are looking to make a living and are satisfied with 90% or 95% accuracy.  A numismatic researcher like you can strive for 100% -- they can't.

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I did see the employment of uncommon descriptors there.  1921 Saint-Gaudens D. E. PCGS SP64+ CAC R-8 "Enigmatic Satin Finish Proof": Only Two Examples Known - New Discovery, and a 1910 "Unique Experimental" Finish.

These may be the two of which you speak. (I even jotted them down.)  As to the former, I thought this coin had been sitting around somewhere for a hundred years, pored over who knows how many times, and Eureka, a "New" Discovery. I do not know what "R-8" refers to, and would be too embarrassed to ask, but walked away thinking the overall descriptor was curious.

The 1910, even older, is is described as displaying a "Unique Experimental Finish," which I thought to be creative.  In numismatics, descriptors beyond the basic five--strike, preservation, luster, color and attractiveness (eye appeal) are employed, not by collectors but dealers. [No fishmonger would cry out FISH!  It is always FRESH FISH! And so it is with coins.] The OP has argued that a grade should not be based, in part, on the use of arbitrary, unquantifiable, subjective [suggestive] terms. I agree.

Edited by Quintus Arrius
Honestly, I not recall. (Die polishing.)
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On 8/25/2022 at 9:27 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I did see the employment of uncommon descriptors there.  1921 Saint-Gaudens D. E. PCGS SP64+ CAC R-8 "Enigmatic Satin Finish Proof": Only Two Examples Known - New Discovery, and a 1910 "Unique Experimental" Finish.

These may be the two of which you speak. (I even jotted them down.)  As to the former, I thought this coin had been sitting around somewhere for a hundred years, pored over who knows how many times, and Eureka, a "New" Discovery. I do not know what "R-8" refers to, and would be too embarrassed to ask, but walked away thinking the overall descriptor was curious.

The 1910, even older, is is described as displaying a "Unique Experimental Finish," which I thought to be creative.  In numismatics, descriptors beyond the basic five--strike, preservation, luster, color and attractiveness (eye appeal) are employed, not by collectors but dealers. [No fishmonger would cry out FISH!  It is always FRESH FISH! And so it is with coins.] The OP has argued that a grade should not be based, in part, on the use of arbitrary, unquantifiable, subjective [suggestive] terms. I agree.

There were other simple historical and factual errors in the competitive exhibits. This is something I expect the exhibit judges to include in their notes to exhibitors. To me, accuracy (educational aspect) is a critical factor. Decorated pigs don't get awards, except at the county fair. Maybe the resident exhibit judge, festooned with ribbons and key to the executive washroom, can speak to the imporance of historical accuracy.

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On 8/25/2022 at 12:42 PM, RWB said:

There were other simple historical and factual errors in the competitive exhibits. This is something I expect the exhibit judges to include in their notes to exhibitors. To me, accuracy (educational aspect) is a critical factor. Decorated pigs don't get awards, except at the county fair. Maybe the resident exhibit judge, festooned with ribbons and key to the executive washroom, can speak to the imporance of historical accuracy.

...and were u privy to the exhibitors notes?...u absolutely know whether points were or were not deducted for accuracy?...again another uniformed slanted comment from a negative oriented bystander...ironic an anura trying to denigrate a sus....

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Even I had trouble with that "New & Improved" or whatever on the 1921 SP.  That was clearly marketing.

Look, anybody with enough $$$ to bid on that certainly has some people working for him to ferret out the most minute details as to accuracy, that's how I look at it. 

The general public won't be fooled or misled -- unless the general public is bidding on 7-figure coins. xD

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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@zadok:

I know you are perfectly capable of exuding positivity.  As it is, your remarks recall a one-time Vice-President, known nearly 52 laters for gems like: "nattering nabobs of negatism," and "hopeless hysterical hypochondriacs" of history." Tell us something about your most prized possession, irrespective of value, and why you love it so much.  You're among friends here!  :)

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Further detail on the ANA Chicago 2022 "lunch break" brazen-theft of a display case of Rolex watches.

I can't imagine the horror of the dealer/team when they returned from lunch.

The following is a list of stolen property:
 
Rolex 68NM8988 Card Submariner 40mm s/s MAYYY
Rolex 50548806 Explorer III 42mm s/s OYYY
Rolex Cier Air King 34mm SS Y154239
Rolex Daytona 588u0014 40mm 18kt YG KYYYY
Rolex GMT 40mm S/S TIYY E267488
Rolex Subcard 15A71239 MATYY
Rolex Black Daytona 40mm s/s AYYY MD88041
Rolex 943YY485 Yachtmaster 31mm 18kt YG/ss IYYY
Rolex DJ 18K YG L225047
Rolex 405n559 Datejust 41mm ST/WG OIYY
Rolex 74z55203 Daytona 40mm Platinum MYYYYY
Rolex 8579069 Day Date 18K yg MMYYY
Rolex 1043462 Explorer II Explorer II 40mm s/s NSYY
Rolex Datejust IOIY T390114
Rolex A560809 Day Date 36mm 18KT/YG MIOIY
Rolex Day date 18k yg 6410355
Rolex K329143 PAP Submariner 40mm S/S TSIY
Rolex Day date 18k yg 6
Rolex Explorer II 40mm s/s TAIY F699052
Rolex K358799 Explorer II 40mms/s TIYY
Rolex U468886 Yachtmaster 26mm 18k w/g KYYY
Rolex t760740 Datejust 36mm s/s CIYY
Rolex K132037 Paper GMT Master ii 40mm s/s MMYYY
Rolex E619102 Submariner 40mm S/S TOYY
1914D $10 Gold Indian ICG MS65
1883CC GSA Holder
1884CC GSA Holder
1856S NGC AU55 $3 gold
2- $20 Saints PCGS MS63
1850 1$ Gold
1820 Large Cent raw
1865 Five cent raw
1798 1$ pcgs XF Knob 9
1865 2 cent piece
1843-O 50 cent AU raw
2- 1909 D 5$ Indians NGC MS63

Over the past several months, organized groups have been targeting coin shows and coin shops. These offenses are becoming serious issues and have resulted in substantial losses.

“As was driven home by the recent theft at the World’s Fair of Money, the American Numismatic Association is concerned about increased numismatic scams and crimes across the nation,” said ANA President Dr. Ralph Ross. “The ANA’s Board of Governors will convene a series of special meetings to conduct a thorough evaluation of the Association’s security protocols and take steps to address the emerging threats to the numismatic community’s property and physical safety. We look forward to collaborating with law enforcement, security specialists and members of our numismatic community for purposes of minimizing risks in our community.”

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@USAuPzlBxBob:

While I can can certainly understand Charmy's reluctance on dwelling on this sordid affair at length, I believe you've done an invaluable public service by providing the deails. It sounds like a local job and a crime of opportunity. But if it isn't, and the thieves fly out of state, the FBI will get involved and so will the NCIC. I am sorry no one appeared to be around and neither @Charmy2 nor @VKurtB were there to record the incident.  With video purportedly available, I hope tracking down the culprits will be only a matter of time.

I thank the public for this information.

 

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On 8/26/2022 at 10:04 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Further detail on the ANA Chicago 2022 "lunch break" brazen-theft of a display case of Rolex watches. I can't imagine the horror of the dealer/team when they returned from lunch. The following is a list of stolen property: Rolex 68NM8988 Card Submariner 40mm s/s MAYYY  Rolex 50548806 Explorer III 42mm s/s OYYY Rolex Cier Air King 34mm SS Y154239 Rolex Daytona 588u0014 40mm 18kt YG KYYYY Rolex GMT 40mm S/S TIYY E267488 Rolex Subcard 15A71239 MATYY Rolex Black Daytona 40mm s/s AYYY MD88041 Rolex 943YY485 Yachtmaster 31mm 18kt YG/ss IYYY Rolex DJ 18K YG L225047 Rolex 405n559 Datejust 41mm ST/WG OIYY Rolex 74z55203 Daytona 40mm Platinum MYYYYY Rolex 8579069 Day Date 18K yg MMYYY Rolex 1043462 Explorer II Explorer II 40mm s/s NSYY Rolex Datejust IOIY T390114 Rolex A560809 Day Date 36mm 18KT/YG MIOIY Rolex Day date 18k yg 6410355 Rolex K329143 PAP Submariner 40mm S/S TSIY Rolex Day date 18k yg 6 Rolex Explorer II 40mm s/s TAIY F699052 Rolex K358799 Explorer II 40mms/s TIYY Rolex U468886 Yachtmaster 26mm 18k w/g KYYY Rolex t760740 Datejust 36mm s/s CIYY Rolex K132037 Paper GMT Master ii 40mm s/s MMYYY Rolex E619102 Submariner 40mm S/S TOYY 1914D $10 Gold Indian ICG MS65 1883CC GSA Holder 1884CC GSA Holder 1856S NGC AU55 $3 gold 2- $20 Saints PCGS MS63 1850 1$ Gold 1820 Large Cent raw 1865 Five cent raw 1798 1$ pcgs XF Knob 9 1865 2 cent piece 1843-O 50 cent AU raw 2- 1909 D 5$ Indians NGC MS63 Over the past several months, organized groups have been targeting  coin shows and coin shops. These offenses are becoming serious issues and have resulted in substantial losses.  “As was driven home by the recent theft at the World’s Fair of Money, the American Numismatic Association is concerned about increased numismatic scams and crimes across the nation,” said ANA President Dr. Ralph Ross. “The ANA’s Board of Governors will convene a series of special meetings to conduct a thorough evaluation of the Association’s security protocols and take steps to address the emerging threats to the numismatic community’s property and physical safety. We look forward to collaborating with law enforcement, security specialists and members of our numismatic community for purposes of minimizing risks in our community.”

Wait a second....NOBODY was on the vendor show floor when this lunch was going on ?  WTF ?

There should be a person or persons -- maybe armed -- on the floor with all the valuable cases at all times.  My astronomy show has 24-hour coverage and this is with folks probably topping out at maybe $50,000 worth of merchandise (maybe 1 or 2 or 3 of the 100+ vendors have $100K or $150K with very expensive optics).

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 8/26/2022 at 10:04 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Over the past several months, organized groups have been targeting coin shows and coin shops. These offenses are becoming serious issues and have resulted in substantial losses.

If this is known, then all the more reason to take preemptive action.

Feds or local cops should also maybe run a sting...have a couple of retired cops pose as an elderly couple dealer with alot of cash at their table and then drive off.  See if anybody follows them. (thumbsu

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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I'm not a "watch" guy, but upon hearing about this I Googled this theft and found all sorts of other brazen thefts, much of it on YouTube.

One thing I learned was a single Rolex watch could cost $50K.  Didn't know that.

This "smash and grab" stuff has to start resulting in apprehensions and swift justice.  Like when a "display case" gets smashed, then the doors auto lock.  Nobody can leave, nobody can enter, and the owners are sufficiently armed — and protected in other ways, too — to defend their lives and property.

And it has to resonate that the only way for the auto-lock doors to open is when a heavily armed security force arrives with the only method to get the doors unlocked, and the thieves know they're beat… every time.

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On 8/26/2022 at 12:28 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

This "smash and grab" stuff has to start resulting in apprehensions and swift justice.  Like when a "display case" gets smashed, then the doors auto lock.  Nobody can leave, nobody can enter, and the owners are sufficiently armed — and protected in other ways, too — to defend their lives and property. 

Yes  !!!  Then knock-out gas is dispersed in the room.....the perps are rendered unconscious.....then they are hung over a vat of acid with ropes that are being slowly burned by candles.(thumbsu

Oh wait...that was from an episode of BATMAN. xD

Never mind........xD

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On 8/26/2022 at 12:28 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

I'm not a "watch" guy, but upon hearing about this I Googled this theft and found all sorts of other brazen thefts, much of it on YouTube.

One thing I learned was a single Rolex watch could cost $50K.  Didn't know that.

This "smash and grab" stuff has to start resulting in apprehensions and swift justice.  Like when a "display case" gets smashed, then the doors auto lock.  Nobody can leave, nobody can enter, and the owners are sufficiently armed — and protected in other ways, too — to defend their lives and property.

And it has to resonate that the only way for the auto-lock doors to open is when a heavily armed security force arrives with the only method to get the doors unlocked, and the thieves know they're beat… every time.

True, but what happens when a crew grabs Penny the cat and, effecting their best Cagneyesque imitations, sneers, "Open the doors, or the cat gets it!"  Most bank alarms do not activate the door-locking mechanism for just that reason.  My understanding is one of the security guards at the door was [intentionally] distracted. Security costs money. I always assumed the wares of those who attend are insured. There had to be a dozen guns privately held by exhibitors on that vast show floor.

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ANA shows have at times used guard dogs to err, umm, sniff out people who might try to hide out under draped tables. I haven’t heard of it in recent years. There IS 24 hour security. The thieves seem to have hidden under draped tables overnight. 

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On 8/26/2022 at 3:31 PM, VKurtB said:

ANA shows have at times used guard dogs to err, umm, sniff out people who might try to hide out under draped tables. I haven’t heard of it in recent years. There IS 24 hour security. The thieves seem to have hidden under draped tables overnight. 

Unless a draped table is like a Romulan Cloaking Device....you simply lift the fabric up and see if a couple of hoods are underneath.  :)

Hint:  they're bigger than a breadbox. xD

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 8/26/2022 at 3:31 PM, VKurtB said:

The thieves seem to have hidden under draped tables overnight. 

Seems really simple for "In-Security" to flip up all the table skirts after the show closes. An upgrade might be to have those sharp-eyed exhibit judges work the night shift to spot miscreants hiding under the hot dog stand or in the restroom ceiling.

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On 8/26/2022 at 6:20 PM, RWB said:

Seems really simple for "In-Security" to flip up all the table skirts after the show closes. An upgrade might be to have those sharp-eyed exhibit judges work the night shift to spot miscreants hiding under the hot dog stand or in the restroom ceiling.

The same exhibit judges who drove 12 hours the day before and worked at Dealer Registration for 11 and a half hours that day? Got it. 
 

I turned in for the night at 7pm each night, until Wednesday night. I got there Sunday night. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 8/26/2022 at 6:20 PM, RWB said:

Seems really simple for "In-Security" to flip up all the table skirts after the show closes. An upgrade might be to have those sharp-eyed exhibit judges work the night shift to spot miscreants hiding under the hot dog stand or in the restroom ceiling.

Security on the night in question seemed far more intent on making sure the exhibitors were ejected from the hall than doing ANYTHING about actual security. In truth, the opportunity for the crew emptying trash bins to engage in larcenous activities is pretty considerable. On floor overnight security is focused about not letting people GET IN, and precious little about who might already BE IN. That needs to change. “Release the hounds!”

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On 8/26/2022 at 7:20 PM, RWB said:

Seems really simple for "In-Security" to flip up all the table skirts after the show closes. An upgrade might be to have those sharp-eyed exhibit judges work the night shift to spot miscreants hiding under the hot dog stand or in the restroom ceiling.

They might not report them, but grade them as MS-63. xD

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On 8/26/2022 at 9:07 PM, VKurtB said:

Security on the night in question seemed far more intent on making sure the exhibitors were ejected from the hall than doing ANYTHING about actual security. In truth, the opportunity for the crew emptying trash bins to engage in larcenous activities is pretty considerable. On floor overnight security is focused about not letting people GET IN, and precious little about who might already BE IN. That needs to change. “Release the hounds!”

The dealers need to hire 1 or 2 of their own key security people and not rely on the convention place.

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On 8/26/2022 at 9:15 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Security on the night in question seemed far more intent on making sure the exhibitors were ejected from the hall than doing ANYTHING about actual security. In truth, the opportunity for the crew emptying trash bins to engage in larcenous activities is pretty considerable. On floor overnight security is focused about not letting people GET IN, and precious little about who might already BE IN. That needs to change. “Release the hounds!

That's very telling.

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On 8/26/2022 at 8:19 PM, RWB said:

That's very telling.

It is. But what is it telling? It’s telling me that coin shows are going to have to “up their game” regarding security, because the thieves are pros. This caper had all the makings of an Ocean’s 15 movie. They literally hid out inside the bourse floor overnight on the night between the dealer-only pre-show and the actual first day of the regular show. The lull between the two events is the ideal time to pull something. I know that you know, Roger, how HUGE these bourse floors are. They are literally measured in acres. Those who have never been to a Chicago summer ANA have never been to a truly big honkin’ show. Not even a January F.U.N. compares. It’s a clear second, though. 
 

Some January Berlin shows are bigger, but that is also a minting industry trade show, with actual coin press manufacturers having booths. Also every conceivable supplies manufacturer. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 8/26/2022 at 9:43 PM, VKurtB said:

It is. But what is it telling? It’s telling me that coin shows are going to have to “up their game” regarding security, because the thieves are pros.

Yeah...and you can't hire a couple of kids and some ex-bus drivers looking to pick up some PT work as "security."

Let me tell you a story when me and a guy were working with the professional security team for my astronomy club (we are probably the largest amateur expo in the country with 100-120 vendors with stuff costing tens of thousands at most tables).  Obviously, selling stolen astronomy stuff (scopes/eye pieces/meteorites/etc.) is tougher than selling coins or jewels or Rolexes but you are still talking about thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars even.

We're at the entrance to the field house....things slow down....we are on both sides of a huge truck door entrance (12 feet high; 15 feet wide).  Nobody gets IN or OUT without a dealer badge and/or the highly visible security windbreakers.  We are to look at each other across the entrance....out towards the parking lot....and then inside towards the vendor floor.  No talking, no BSing, no nothing.  My eyes are on my partner....the parking lot....the vendor floor.  Wash, rinse, repeat....

Well, my partner takes out his smartphone...checks some text messages.....I was looking out at the parking lot....all of a sudden, the security professional is screaming at 200 decibels: "WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING ?   WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING ?  WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU DOING ?"  I nearly had a heart attack as the place was quiet aside from people milling about and forklifts moving (no cars or people through the entrance). 

He slightly lowered -- slightly -- and said you don't look anywhere other than at me, the parking lot, and the vendor floor.  You don't reach for your smartphone.  You don't read a text message.  You don't take a phone call.  If somebody collapses and suffers a heart attack or stroke on the floor or you get a call about that.....you CALL HIM (the security head).  It was a scene out of "Full Metal Jacket" with the Marine Drill Seargant ripping the new recruits.xD

This is what the coin shows need to hire....PROFESSIONAL security people, not folks looking to make some extra income wearing SECURITY jackets with no knowledge of procedures.  You have to pay up -- but it is worth it.  My club went cheap 20 years ago and paid some outfit like $500-$750 for half-a**** "security" and someone stole some stuff from a vendor.  Then we anted up for a few thousand dollars for 48 hours of perfection and nobody has lost anything since.

No reason to go cheap.  It's a small expense in the scheme of things.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 8/26/2022 at 10:46 PM, VKurtB said:

Here’s the worst part. The thief most likely not ONLY had dealer credentials, but dealer-only pre-show credentials AND a photo ID badge. Hard card plus a yellow and a maroon ribbon. I make cards for EVERY person who hands me the receipt for having paid, whether on-site, or previously. There were two guys on cameras that Monday, me and the Host Committee Chairman of the show. I’ll bet ANYTHING either Steve or I shot this dude’s photo ID, and they ARE all digitally stored. Step one? Grab ALL the Monday photos and scan them for previously unknown folks. The entity to which they were affiliated is also stored. 

They didn't sneak it out....according to Charmy, they literally took the entire case.  Sounds like some camera may have caught them.

These venues which are regularly used for conventions or get-togethers should have Hi-Def/4K videos running from multiple locations with zoom-ins.  Recorded in a control room.  Costs a fraction of what it did 20-30 years ago. Thousands of dollars an hour then; maybe $200 an hour today.

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On 8/26/2022 at 10:46 PM, VKurtB said:

Here’s the worst part. The thief most likely not ONLY had dealer credentials, but dealer-only pre-show credentials AND a photo ID badge. Hard card plus a yellow and a maroon ribbon. I make cards for EVERY person who hands me the receipt for having paid, whether on-site, or previously. There were two guys on cameras that Monday, me and the Host Committee Chairman of the show. I’ll bet ANYTHING either Steve or I shot this dude’s photo ID, and they ARE all digitally stored. Step one? Grab ALL the Monday photos and scan them for previously unknown folks. The entity to which they were affiliated is also stored. 

Sounds like if they snuck in as dealers it should be easy to catch or ID them.  I hope they had cameras there !

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