Can an NGC holdered coin rotate in its EdgeView holder? 0

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I have a 1914-D $5 NGC MS64+ (CAC), purchased in December 2014 from a well established Florida dealer.

I just did an NGC Verify on the coin, it is a Verify match, and from the NGC Verify Photos the holder matches as seen by a fiber and some debris by a front, bottom-left EdgeView prong.  And for the coin match, I am able to identify a slight scratch on the reverse when comparing my photo to NGC's photo.

Now, remember that the coin continued its journey before getting to me by also going to CAC at some point and getting a "bean."

I did a check on CAC and the coin does check out with their "bean" status, although they only cite NGC MS64. (they don't include pluses "+")

However, when I compare my "home taken" photo to NGC's photo, the coin has rotated clockwise half the width of one of its 13 obverse stars.  Clearly noticeable.

Can this be possible as happening from it just being shipped around or casually looked at?  Another possibility might be that the coin was submitted for reholdering, and new photos were not taken; but how would the fiber match, and when new holdering is done, does NGC replace everything, other than the coin?

Anyone have a possible Sherlock Holmesian deduction?

I've heard of "coin rattlers" but they were unique to PCGS for just three years in their late 1980s holders.

[GoldFinger1969]

Other coins -- including a few I have, like a 1927 Saint -- have rotated within their NGC or PCGS holders.  I think the 1927 moved about 45 degrees.

Not sure how it happens as I thought they were securely in place, but I've seen others as well that have "moved."

[USAuPzlBxBob]

45º rotation… wow!

Sort of like Death Valley's moving stones?

Reminds me of the movie where experts come to investigate supernatural movements, talk about how something moved half an inch (or something) in 24 hours, and the guy, who has been drinking for weeks, opens up the door to a playroom and things are whizzing around, and toy chattering teeth come right up in front of them just to makes things even move bizarre.  Can't remember the name of the movie.

 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Finally figured out the movie… it wasn't Bill Murray, not Randy Quaid…

it was Craig T. Nelson!

Who cares about coin die marriages or metal detecting for Half Cent copper when we've got coin holders that rotate coins… supernaturally!

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I thought I had a déjà vu feeling last night, on the 'Another Reason To Photograph Your Coins — Toning, Spotting, & Other Changes' thread.

I guess my short term memory isn't as bad as I thought it was.

Edited February 6, 2023 by USAuPzlBxBob
because because… but why? Ans. because

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Still working on this coin rotation "puzzle."

Consider, if you will, that the coin/holder can fluctuate between 60ºF and 100ºF, the 1914-D $2.5 Indian has a known reeded-edge diameter of 21.6 mm, and let's assume that NGC's inner-core slab is polytetrafluoroethylene. (PTFE)  The Coefficients of Thermal Expansion for Gold - copper and PTFE are 8.6 (10^-6 in/(in ºF)) and 68.6 (10^-6 in/(in ºF)), respectively.  This means that if the temperature rises for the "slab" the coin will loosen slightly within the three cushioning prongs.

How large a circular gap would be created, assuming ideality?

𝚫L = ⍺ L₀ 𝚫T

Circular Gap = 𝚫L/2 = 1/2 ⍺ L₀ 𝚫T
 

    1   |   (68.6  -  8.6)  10^-6 in   |   21.6 mm   |     cm       |        in        |   (100  -  60)  ºF    
    2   |                in ºF               |                    |   10 mm   |   2.54 cm   |

Circular Gap = 0.001 inch

To give some scale on this circular gap, here is my old STAEDTLER-MARS tri-rule showing the 50 scale.  Each one of those tiny divisions is 0.02 inch, and so the circular gap would be 20 times more narrow than one of those tiny divisions.

Nonetheless, a temperature rise of the coin/holder would loosen the holder's grasp on the coin… albeit infinitesimally.

Let's look at the coin… how securely it is held in place:

Clearly there is some room for movement up and down.  Notice, too, that the coin is not held by 4 cushioning prongs.  Less "holding" real estate with a tri-prong holder.

I did a quick experiment, raising the slab about five inches above two sheets of heavy-stock paper, and dropped it a few times.

Here is the movement noticed on one of the reverse prongs:

Before

After

This is as far as I've gotten, for now.

[VKurtB]

I moved all my slabbed coins about 750 miles. Some rotated significantly. Others not at all. I attributed it to vibration. 

[RWB]

"Can an NGC holdered coin rotate in its EdgeView holder?"

Yep.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

With a lot of spare time, the Boards being down today, I got back to work on seeing what I could do with this coin and Holder.

I looked for info on PCGS.  Nothing of value.  Then I clicked on a CoinTalk article and found the best advice of all.

First, I dropped the Holder, reverse side facing down, on my kitchen island, but onto an Engineer Calculation Pad (Roaring Spring, buff color) so as not to damage the Holder.

This was to zero out the coin so that it would be flush against all three of the cushioning-prong bottom ledges.

Then I stood the Holder upright on the pad and did a few rotation slams from the bottom edge so that only the upper-most prong might be affected.  In other words, I hoped that the two lower prong bottom edges would still be touching the coin but the upper-prong might have the coin touching its top obverse inside ledge.  Didn't really accomplish much, but it was worth a shot, and probably helped loosen the coin somewhat.

Then, with my left hand, coin obverse facing me slightly, and with the holder a few inches above the pad, I slammed the Holder's top-right-side-edge onto the pad so that it would rotate clockwise with the most force occurring on that corner.  This was repeated a few times.  The goal here was to see if the coin would rotate, and would it rotate in the direction I wanted.  Well, sure enough, the coin did rotate a little, and in the direction I wanted.  I tried that a few more times, but had diminishing returns, so I decided to rotate the Holder 180º and see if that opposite corner might give me some benefit.  It did.

I kept going like this, and after 10 Holder rotating-corner slams, the coin was rotated completely to where I wanted it to be.

Before

 

After

 

NGC Verify Photo

Finally, to finish up, I again dropped the Holder on the pad, obverse side facing up, to seat the coin again on all three of the bottom inside-ledges of the prongs.

This result was so good that I intend to follow up with my $2.5 Classic Head, which is slightly rotated too, but in the opposite direction.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Actually, the $2.5 Classic Head needs to be rotated in the same direction that my $5 Indian needed rotation.

This rotation stuff can be so confusing.

What is funny, too, is that if someone asked me ahead of time which corner to tap, based on intuition, I would have guessed the top left corner, and not the top right corner.

Oftentimes, Trial and Error gets the job done a lot faster than "pondering" over best ways to get a job done.

[J P M]

I new it would work you just had to find the sweet spot Bob.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I'm having a really good day.

I moved on to trying to rotate my 1839 $2.5 Classic Head.

Here it is, before.

Before

I wanted to rotate the coin in the same direction that I rotated the 1914-D $5 Indian.  This meant tapping the upper right edge-corner of the Holder on the pad of paper, and also possible spinning the Holder 180º around its Z-axis and tapping that (now) upper right edge-corner, too.

Remember, this $2.5 Classic Head coin has less mass than the $5 Indian, the holder is different in that it has 4 cushioning prongs, not 3, and the coin fits fairly flush against all of the upper and bottom prong "ledges" that secure its placement in the Holder.

I began tapping and it wasn't rotating at all.  I then increased my taps between rotation-inspections to around 20 taps.  Also, I brought the Holder near the space-heater I use in the kitchen, and warmed it a little to help loosen the coin, maybe.  It was rotating a little bit, but not enough to know with certainty if it was rotating in the correct direction.

In the confusion of the moment, when I finally looked at the coin after really doing a lot of successive taps to gain direction-certainty… I realized I was rotating the coin in the wrong direction.  The "1" of 1839 was now right in the middle of the bottom left prong.

I became panicky.  It was rotating in the intuitive direction I had thought the $5 Indian should have rotated, but didn't, and I was now doubting my competency.

Ok, calm down.  Tap the Holder on the "left" corners and it should move back.

Well, it did move back.

Finally, I got it to where I wanted it… and then I decided to go a little past where I wanted it to rotate to.

After

So why did I go past where I had thought I wanted to rotate the coin to?

Here is the way the coin's reverse used to look.

Before

See that glaring rim ding?  Here is the rim ding, now.

After

You'd never even know it exists!

[J P M]

On 2/9/2023 at 4:22 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

I'm having a really good day.

I moved on to trying to rotate my 1839 $2.5 Classic Head.

Here it is, before.

Before

I wanted to rotate the coin in the same direction that I rotated the 1914-D $5 Indian.  This meant tapping the upper right edge-corner of the Holder on the pad of paper, and also possible spinning the Holder 180º around its Z-axis and tapping that (now) upper right edge-corner, too.

Remember, this $2.5 Classic Head coin has less mass than the $5 Indian, the holder is different in that it has 4 cushioning prongs, not 3, and the coin fits fairly flush against all of the upper and bottom prong "ledges" that secure its placement in the Holder.

I began tapping and it wasn't rotating at all.  I then increased my taps between rotation-inspections to around 20 taps.  Also, I brought the Holder near the space-heater I use in the kitchen, and warmed it a little to help loosen the coin, maybe.  It was rotating a little bit, but not enough to know with certainty if it was rotating in the correct direction.

In the confusion of the moment, when I finally looked at the coin after really doing a lot of successive taps to gain direction-certainty… I realized I was rotating the coin in the wrong direction.  The "1" of 1839 was now right in the middle of the bottom left prong.

I became panicky.  It was rotating in the intuitive direction I had thought the $5 Indian should have rotated, but didn't, and I was now doubting my competency.

Ok, calm down.  Tap the Holder on the "left" corners and it should move back.

Well, it did move back.

Finally, I got it to where I wanted it… and then I decided to go a little past where I wanted it to rotate to.

After

So why did I go past where I had thought I wanted to rotate the coin to?

Here is the way the coin's reverse used to look.

Before

See that glaring rim ding?  Here is the rim ding, now.

After

You'd never even know it exists!

You just increased the value of that coin with only the flip of a wrist

[Hoghead515]

Ive seen a few while browsing on Ebay that had been rotated quite a bit. Must be a pretty loose fit on some of them. Ive also got a half cent that has fell forward and is almost touching the slab. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/9/2023 at 5:34 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Ive seen a few while browsing on Ebay that had been rotated quite a bit. Must be a pretty loose fit on some of them. Ive also got a half cent that has fell forward and is almost touching the slab. 

If it starts tumbling end over end, that’s not good. 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:34 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Ive seen a few while browsing on Ebay that had been rotated quite a bit. Must be a pretty loose fit on some of them. Ive also got a half cent that has fell forward and is almost touching the slab. 

Give us a pic.

[Hoghead515]

On 2/11/2023 at 1:20 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Give us a pic.

It was hard to capture it in a pic. I had to turn it sideways. Still hard to tell by the pictures.  Its very  crooked. Each end almost touches the plastic. Someone may have put it in that way. Or it could have been thrown around. Its still inside the fingers luckily.  In hand you can see its very crooked. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Hoghead515

[USAuPzlBxBob]

That's rough to make out.  Maybe update your camera from…

[Hoghead515]

On 2/11/2023 at 11:49 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

That's rough to make out.  Maybe update your camera from…

I sure need to. This thing aint much. I was trying turn it sideways where you can see it leaning better. Hard to tell from straight on. Im not much of a photographer neither. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Hoghead515

[USAuPzlBxBob]

My photography luck is even worse.

Trying to take new Registry Photos for the coins I've rotated, and wanting to match the lighting of the old photos, in so doing — tilting my paper pad that was raised up upon books to work with the pendant light — watched the slab scurry off the pad, slip-slide off the kitchen island, and kerplunc onto the slate floor 36 inches below.

That made me feel good.

No damage to the slab, but did have to clean off the dust, hair, and lint that the slab's static-electricity attracted while moseying around down there.

Glad the slabs are well made, so as to withstand this sort of pathetic tomfoolery.                           

At least the coin didn't rotate.   

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Done with uploading my pics of the two coins I rotated back. (to how they were when first received)

I've tried everything to improve on them but my iPhone only has f1.8, and unless I blow the photos up, and do not try to include the colorful Holders in their entirety, the photos just do not have the detail I'd like to see.  When I first took photos of them, it was with an iPhone5 which used f2.4, and gave me just enough detail when taking whole Holder photos.

The other thing I struggle with is the reflection of the Otterbox iPhone protector which discolors the photos a little… portions of the Holders.

Time to move on.

[Hoghead515]

Ive got a very good friend who gifted me some quarters for my set. I need to try and get some good photos of them this weekend. Im gonna go Saturday and get a cord to hook from a camera I got to a lap top and see if I can get better pictures with it. Gonna try to fix a lighting box of some kind. With my phone when I do get them where you can see them good it has a glare of light right on the devices. Seems I cant get this phone to focus good neither.