Date help 2 2

[Clay1492]

I noticed something odd about this 86 cent this morning and handed it off to my wife to study as I left for work.

She correctly identified it as a U.S. cent struck on a canadian cent. It has to be an 82 through 86 I think but I can't make out the date. I am hoping some of you youngsters with sharp eyes might help us out.

  Thank you all very much!

[Oldhoopster]

Sorry, but it looks like a stained US cent. Environmental Damage.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/29/2022 at 9:19 PM, Clay1492 said:

....She correctly identified it as a U.S. cent struck on a canadian cent....

I could have sworn it was a Canadian cent struck on a U.S. cent, but decline to speak for attribution.

[Sandon]

   I can't see any "undertype" of the supposedly overstruck coin either.  Can you take clearer photos of the areas that you claim shows remnants of the design of the Canadian cent?  The only way a U.S. coin could have been overstruck over a Canadian coin in 1986 would be if a U.S. mint worker had deliberately fed the Canadian coin into the press.  While such misdeeds have occurred, they are rare, and the mint worker would have tried to sell the coin for a profit, not have allowed it to enter circulation.

[Clay1492]

That is absolutely how it happened. I can see your dilemma with my pictures however. The collar die rounded out most of the points on the original canadian coin and it is difficult to see on my pics. The queens bust nearly lines up with Lincolns. She is at at 11 to his 12 o'clock. Her hair bun is clearly visible behind his head just above erty. Na of regina is seen above the 1986 date. 198 can be found on the reverse just above the memorial. Just can't make out the last digit. I am sure you know but the canadian coin is struck in medal alignment so if you think of her bust at 11 and the position the canadian date on the reverse of the Lincoln it may help you locate it. Thanks all. Off to bed for this old man.

[l.cutler]

I'm just not seeing anything to indicate a Canadian cent, pictures aren't too clear though.

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/29/2022 at 11:35 PM, Clay1492 said:

That is absolutely how it happened. I can see your dilemma with my pictures however. The collar die rounded out most of the points on the original canadian coin and it is difficult to see on my pics. The queens bust nearly lines up with Lincolns. She is at at 11 to his 12 o'clock. Her hair bun is clearly visible behind his head just above erty. Na of regina is seen above the 1986 date. 198 can be found on the reverse just above the memorial. Just can't make out the last digit. I am sure you know but the canadian coin is struck in medal alignment so if you think of her bust at 11 and the position the canadian date on the reverse of the Lincoln it may help you locate it. Thanks all. Off to bed for this old man.

So you're saying that a mint employee risked their job to slip a Canadian cent into the striking chamber, retrieved that cent, smuggled it out of the mint, sold it to someone, then somehow it entered circulation for you to find later?

If anybody was going to try something like that, they would have a very difficult time retrieving the coin after it was struck

[Henri Charriere]

@Oldhoopster:

I can't believe you buttressed your argument with that "picture is worth a thousand words" copper waterfall!  

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:26 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

@Oldhoopster:

I can't believe you buttressed your argument with that "picture is worth a thousand words" copper waterfall!  

People forget that the mint is a high speed, high volume manufacturing facility.  They strike multiple coins per second!  That copper waterfall are the cents going from the presses to the totes.  

So how are you going to load a Canadian cent into the front end of the press and then retrieve it?  You're not going to shut down the press, because everyone will know.  Downtime, throughput, yields, etc are all monitored and tracked and supervisors have instant access to that data.  And that's why its difficult just to make the error surreptitiously, then you have to get it out of the facility through mint security.  Good luck

Just a stained cent

 

[RWB]

Let's examine this in a more orderly manner ---

First question. Please describe how US cents were struck in 1986.

Second question. Describe the differences in weight, thickness, diameter and composition between 1986 US cents and any previous Canadian cent.

Third question. Explain how a Canadian cent would be introduced into the supply of US cent planchets.

PS: Your photos are too fuzzy to convey anything more than it's a normal 1986 cent that has been stained and damaged.

[Coinbuf]

On 7/30/2022 at 9:25 AM, Oldhoopster said:

People forget that the mint is a high speed, high volume manufacturing facility.  They strike multiple coins per second!  That copper waterfall are the cents going from the presses to the totes.  

So how are you going to load a Canadian cent into the front end of the press and then retrieve it?  You're not going to shut down the press, because everyone will know.  Downtime, throughput, yields, etc are all monitored and tracked and supervisors have instant access to that data.  And that's why its difficult just to make the error surreptitiously, then you have to get it out of the facility through mint security.  Good luck

Just a stained cent

 

 

While your point is very valid and true, there have been many examples of moonlight minting shenanigans done by mint employees.   One that comes to mind quickly is the clover leaf (dimes if I remember correctly) that were struck with Ike dollar dies.   There was a recent thread on one or two of these on the PCGS forum.   For that to happen the three coins had to be placed into the press, one strike, then removed and as you noted then smuggled out of the mint.   As I'm sure you are aware there are other examples of this type of fake errors that have been created and sold to the less scrupulous dealers that have the connections to acquire these illegally produced coins.

That said I am in agreement that the op is suffering from severe pareidolia and the op's coin is nothing more than a stained, circulated Lincoln cent.

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/30/2022 at 2:33 PM, Coinbuf said:

While your point is very valid and true, there have been many examples of moonlight minting shenanigans done by mint employees.   One that comes to mind quickly is the clover leaf (dimes if I remember correctly) that were struck with Ike dollar dies.   There was a recent thread on one or two of these on the PCGS forum.   For that to happen the three coins had to be placed into the press, one strike, then removed and as you noted then smuggled out of the mint.   As I'm sure you are aware there are other examples of this type of fake errors that have been created and sold to the less scrupulous dealers that have the connections to acquire these illegally produced coins.

That said I am in agreement that the op is suffering from severe pareidolia and the op's coin is nothing more than a stained, circulated Lincoln cent.

Yes. Quite a few of these spectacular errors came out of the San Francisco mint in the early 70s.  A large number were found in an abandoned safety deposit box and were auctioned by the state of CA after getting approval from the Secret Service (I believe they were purchased by Fred Weinberg). 

That had to have been an organized effort over many years and they also had access to the proof presses.  I don't know for certain, but it seems it would be much easier to pull off these shenanigans on a low throughput proof press than on a production press.

 

[RWB]

All  circulation presses except half dollars strike 4 coins with each cycle. Halves are made two-up. Ike dollars and 1964 Peace dollars were struck two-up.

[DWLange]

I don't believe quad presses have been used for cents since introduction of the high speed Schuler presses a couple decades ago. Cents are now struck horizontally in single die pairs, though quads may still be in use for higher denominations.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/29/2022 at 9:19 PM, Clay1492 said:

....She correctly identified it as a U.S. cent struck on a canadian cent....

This is a most curious assertion which begs the question: Are you and she both satisfied with the responses you've received?

[Clay1492]

What if it is not all that complicated. Could someone somewhere along the line, have flipped a canadian penny into a vat of planchets? I did not originally post any pictures of the edge of the coin because I didn't expect controversy, but with the coin in hand  it is evident that it was at one time multi sided. told my wife that said mint employee, if still alive, has Probably been wondering all these years when and if his coin might turn up somewhere. That being said, I did not intend to stir this pot. The info has been informative and appreciated. I will send it upstairs for confirmation one way or another and repost it when it is returned. At that point i will admit my error and take my lashes, or gloat for a day or two. Thanks to all participants.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/30/2022 at 6:43 PM, Clay1492 said:

....with the coin in hand  it is evident that it was at one time multi sided....

[I smell a RATzie in here somewhere...

"Wait, did somebody say multi-sided? An '86? That's mine!  I want it back!"

To the OP: Late night private joke. Before you became a member here. I do hope you get a definitive answer!]

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/30/2022 at 6:43 PM, Clay1492 said:

What if it is not all that complicated. Could someone somewhere along the line, have flipped a canadian penny into a vat of planchets? I did not originally post any pictures of the edge of the coin because I didn't expect controversy, but with the coin in hand  it is evident that it was at one time multi sided. told my wife that said mint employee, if still alive, has Probably been wondering all these years when and if his coin might turn up somewhere. That being said, I did not intend to stir this pot. The info has been informative and appreciated. I will send it upstairs for confirmation one way or another and repost it when it is returned. At that point i will admit my error and take my lashes, or gloat for a day or two. Thanks to all participants.

Do they even allow mint employees to bring loose change onto the production floor?  Anybody know for certain?

I can see the conversation with security, "honestly, I had a pocket full of 2022 quarters when I came in this morning".  Seems like a bad idea.

I think sending it in is a waste of $65+, but it's your money and your decision.  Personally, I think you would have better luck buying lottery tickets

[Clay1492]

I guess maybe I should send this 1987, 2.5 gram wheat cent instead.  Probably another prank by our favorite mint employee! I can't really make out the date but that does seem like a lot of weight loss from corrosion. Another post for another time I guess.

[VKurtB]

On 7/31/2022 at 4:29 PM, Clay1492 said:

I guess maybe I should send this 1987, 2.5 gram wheat cent instead.  Probably another prank by our favorite mint employee! I can't really make out the date but that does seem like a lot of weight loss from corrosion. Another post for another time I guess.

So you think this is a mint error? Sorry, no. 

[Henri Charriere]

Not sure what your question is as prolonged exposure to environmental damage has effectively precluded the necessity for protection encapsulation provides. And if the date were discernable, the next question would be, How much is it worth?  If a CoinStar or similar device used to redeem coins, rejects it, you'll have your answer.

Caution: some members can be unnecessarily abrupt when reviewing other collectors' coins dismissing them outright using one-word epithets. There is no call for that,  but don't take it personally. I attribute it to fatigue brought on by the continual, seemingly never-ending exposure to  artifacts posted by starry-eyed collectors who truly believe they have something rare, unusual or valuable. The genuine collectors pick and choose with care and assemble collections within their ability. Don't give up!

[DWLange]

Don't send that cent to NGC unless you simply have more money that you're comfortable having, because you'll get it back in a body back stickered ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE or even NOT SUIABLE FOR CERTIFICATION.

[Conder101]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:25 PM, Oldhoopster said:

People forget that the mint is a high speed, high volume manufacturing facility.  They strike multiple coins per second! 

While true, in 1986 the coining rate was much slower than it is today.  I believe press cycle speed was around 120 per minute (but with 2 or 4 dies per press), where today it is closer to 750 with a single die.

 

On 7/30/2022 at 4:18 PM, DWLange said:

Cents are now struck horizontally in single die pairs, though quads may still be in use for higher denominations.

I think today they are all struck on single die horizontal Schuler presses.