TPG Label with "Improper Cleaning" 1 1

[EagleRJO]

I'm a newer collector and this is the first time I recall seeing a TPG label state that a coin was "Improperly Cleaned", although I have seen numerous labeled as "cleaned".  I am left wondering what they mean by that, because I have also not seen "Properly Cleaned".  For cleaned coins it's usually just the descriptive grade with "Details" (no number grade), and then a reason like "Cleaned" or damaged.  If it is "properly cleaned" is it noted similar to the improper cleaning of that era, or is it just graded without mentioning that like a properly cleaned coin currently is handled, which I think is actually called "numismatic conservation", and not "cleaning" nowadays.

Edited July 22, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

“Properly Cleaned” is not a “thing”. Cleaning done properly should not be detectable. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

Yea, I know, that why it struck me as odd.

[DWLange]

Some years ago NGC and NCS used the term IMPROPERLY CLEANED to distinguish harmful cleaning from proper conservation. In more recent years this has been replaced by the simple term CLEANED, but both mean the same thing. Your coin likely was graded ten years ago or more.

[EagleRJO]

Thanks, that makes sense.

[Sandon]

   The use of the term "cleaned" in numismatic parlance does not refer to the mere removal of dirt or other foreign matter from the surface of a coin, which is instead referred to as "conservation".  "Cleaning", in numismatic parlance, instead refers to the use of abrasive or chemical substances that alter the appearance of a coin in a manner that contemporary numismatists consider to be unnatural or undesirable, such as the glossy and unnatural shade of gray on your 1903-S Morgan dollar, which may or may not also have telltale hairline scratches from contact with something abrasive. Even experienced collectors and dealers disagree on just what characteristics are indicative of a "cleaning" and how much a particular form of "cleaning" should reduce the desirability or value of a coin. I have created a custom set on the NGC Registry entitled "Characteristics of 'Cleaned' Coins" that explains this issue further and includes pieces from my collection that were described by NGC or PCGS as "cleaned" or that were numerically graded but in my opinion were "cleaned".  You should be able to view this set at https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=31632

[EagleRJO]

@SandonThanks for sharing your sets of cleaned coins, interesting and educational.  The one that surprised me was graded by NGC is the 1880 Seated Liberty Half Dollar due to the scratches, particularly on the obverse.  I also noticed that the PCGS certification for the 1849 Seated Liberty Half Dollar came back as missing.

Nice Morgan Dollar collection to.  But where is your Proof 1895 (P) ...

[Hoghead515]

You will see other Details coins also. Such as detais hairlines, or details graffiti, details scratched,  etc.  If you see one with details on the slab it means it is a problem coin that didnt straight grade. 

[Sandon]

   Thank you for your comments, EagleRJO!  I'm not sure what you mean by "the PCGS certification for the 1849 Seated Liberty [dollar, not half dollar] came back as missing." PCGS certificate verification acknowledges the coin and its "cleaned" details grade.

   I'm glad you enjoyed my certified Morgan dollars (ranked #703). I have registry sets primarily for educational purposes.  As a new collector, you might find most informative my type sets, especially "Sandon's Incidental Type Set", ranked #30 under category "US Type Set 1792-1964" or the extended version ranked #32 under the "US Type set including modern issues" category.  I have photos and comments, sometimes extensive, on each coin.  

   "Problem" coins are collectible at a discount varying with their level of impairment.  You have to learn to recognize them, whether or not TPG certified.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:07 AM, Sandon said:

   I'm not sure what you mean by "the PCGS certification for the 1849 Seated Liberty [dollar, not half dollar] came back as missing." PCGS certificate verification acknowledges the coin and its "cleaned" details grade.

Yes, I meant the 1849 Seated Liberty Dollar, not half-dollar, in your Cleaned collection.  It was coming up yesterday as "That certification number was not found", but when I checked just now the PCGS cert did come up.  The one that did surprise me as number graded by NGC as PF-62 (not Details graded) was the 1880 Seated Liberty Half Dollar (attached).  Seemed like a lot of scratches in the obverse field for a TPG number graded coin.

On 7/20/2022 at 11:07 AM, Sandon said:

"Problem" coins are collectible at a discount varying with their level of impairment.  You have to learn to recognize them, whether or not TPG certified.

It does seem like you can get some good deals with "problem" coins if you are going in eyes-wide-open and willing to accept those potential issues, particularly with raw coins which may not grade out due to those issues.  But as a newer collector I am staying away from them for the time being.

Now, when it comes to filling in the blanks in my complete Morgan collection down the road when I have more experience, I may end up looking at problem coins for a few of the really expensive ones, like the 1893-S Morgan Dollar where even a TPG G-4 goes for around $2,500 thru like Great Collections, just to have a complete set with one that looks good and fits with the others in my set where I am going after AU/BU or XF as a minimum.

[Sandon]

   As I commented in the registry set, older proofs are graded by a different standard that allows more hairlining than for circulation strikes. (There are limits, however.) The mirror surfaces make hairlines particularly noticeable, and so many nineteenth century proofs were wiped with cloths or abrasive materials by collectors of that era that very few would be numerically graded if some level of hairlining weren't allowed. In my experience most graded MS 65 or below will show some significant hairlines.  (Some extent of hairlining is allowed on low to medium uncirculated grade circulation strikes as well, as they can result from normal handling--see the ANA grading guide.)  The 1880 half dollar was a good buy, because the old NGC holder didn't designate it "cameo" as I think it likely would be designated nowadays. (If I were you, I'd avoid buying Morgan or Peace dollars for a while, as the prices for these common coins (yes, even the 1893-S in well circulated grades) appear to be in a "spike" and could go down.)

[EagleRJO]

I have been skipping past the more expensive Morgans and will circle back to those in the future when the prices aren't nuts.  For now, I am just hitting the more common and lower cost ones.

[Conder101]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:28 PM, EagleRJO said:

I am left wondering what they mean by that, because I have also not seen "Properly Cleaned".

That's because a coin that has been properly clean would be one where you can't tell that it has been cleaned.  And if you can't tell, how do you know it has been cleaned.

[EagleRJO]

Yea, so why even bother with "improperly" cleaned, because the opposite of that really isn't a thing, which is why it struck me as odd.  Probably why as DWLange noted they have switched to just "cleaned".