How Many Modern 2 2

[Errorists]

Varieties are there? Do grading companies keep a catalog of them?

[VKurtB]

On 7/5/2022 at 5:30 PM, Errorists said:

Varieties are there? Do grading companies keep a catalog of them?

I’d be amazed if they did, but I’m not on the inside. But there ARE “true believer ideologues” who do. I think you need to check out CONECA. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by VKurtB

[Oldhoopster]

NGC has a list of all the varieties they attribute. You can find it on the home page menu.  I'm sure you could easily find similar info at the other TPG websites, with some minor effort.

[VKurtB]

On 7/5/2022 at 5:37 PM, Oldhoopster said:

NGC has a list of all the varieties they attribute.

But that is NOT GOING TO INCLUDE some varieties that some ideologues do. 

[Errorists]

On 7/5/2022 at 5:37 PM, Oldhoopster said:

NGC has a list of all the varieties they attribute. You can find it on the home page menu.  I'm sure you could easily find similar info at the other TPG websites, with some minor effort.

Any moderns included?

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:37 PM, Oldhoopster said:

....with some minor effort.

[As the referee who made the controversial call during the RR2020 bout (which cost me my job) some words of kindly advice: Don't try to read between the lines. Just focus on the closing words.]

[zadok]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[As the referee who made the controversial call during the RR2020 bout (which cost me my job) some words of kindly advice: Don't try to read between the lines. Just focus on the closing words.]

...hmpf, women's wrestling n roosters...i just cant get the dots to connect...im going defer this inigma to hoghead, hes informed on mudding n jello mashing ....

[World Colonial]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:51 PM, Errorists said:

Any moderns included?

Yes, of course.  Example is 69-S/S cent.  

As for your original question, there must be hundreds at minimum for the "low" mintage years and thousands for the highest mintage dates.  Remember, we're talking about some years with something like 7 billion Lincoln cents from each mint, Philadelphia and Denver.

I've seen many (though a very low proportion) in the Heritage archives with the reference number in the description.  It must come from a reference book.

But like I told you (along with a few others), it's numismatic minutia of no interest to practically anyone, especially where they will pay any "meaningful" premium for at least 99% of these.  No different for most coinage.

How many want to collect hundreds or thousands of the same date/MM/denomination where the difference can only be identified under a microscope?

[Errorists]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:53 PM, World Colonial said:

Yes, of course.  Example is 69-S/S cent.  

As for your original question, there must be hundreds at minimum for the "low" mintage years and thousands for the highest mintage dates.  Remember, we're talking about some years with something like 7 billion Lincoln cents from each mint, Philadelphia and Denver.

I've seen many (though a very low proportion) in the Heritage archives with the reference number in the description.  It must come from a reference book.

But like I told you (along with a few others), it's numismatic minutia of no interest to practically anyone, especially where they will pay any "meaningful" premium for at least 99% of these.  No different for most coinage.

How many want to collect hundreds or thousands of the same date/MM/denomination where the difference can only be identified under a microscope?

Some are easy to see.

[World Colonial]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:02 PM, Errorists said:

Some are easy to see.

Yes, a very low proportion.  These are the ones collected most, being also included in reference books and registry sets.

Only a very low number of series have a high enough collector preference while also being affordable to a large enough collector base.  I'd rate US early large cents first followed by Capped Bust halves and early half cents.  Capped Bust halves are generically both common enough and cheap enough even in mid-circulated grades.  Early US copper has a high enough preference even in the lowest grades.

Good demand for early federal silver coinage across the board.  Earlier US gold is both too scarce and too expensive while Liberty Seated is a long series with too many scarce dates.  It's pointless to even attempt collecting a series by variety when the collector can't even (afford to) collect it by date.  That's the reality for practically every single world coin series I have attempted to collect since 1998, including those I collect now.  I never completed a single one.

The rest of US coinage isn't interesting enough.  That's what the evidence shows.

[Errorists]

On 7/5/2022 at 8:32 PM, World Colonial said:

Yes, a very low proportion.  These are the ones collected most, being also included in reference books and registry sets.

Only a very low number of series have a high enough collector preference while also being affordable to a large enough collector base.  I'd rate US early large cents first followed by Capped Bust halves and early half cents.  Capped Bust halves are generically both common enough and cheap enough even in mid-circulated grades.  Early US copper has a high enough preference even in the lowest grades.

Good demand for early federal silver coinage across the board.  Earlier US gold is both too scarce and too expensive while Liberty Seated is a long series with too many scarce dates.  It's pointless to even attempt collecting a series by variety when the collector can't even (afford to) collect it by date.  That's the reality for practically every single world coin series I have attempted to collect since 1998, including those I collect now.  I never completed a single one.

The rest of US coinage isn't interesting enough.  That's what the evidence shows.

I collect both early and modern ones.

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[As the referee who made the controversial call during the RR2020 bout (which cost me my job) some words of kindly advice: Don't try to read between the lines. Just focus on the closing words.]

I shall file your kindly words of advice in an appropriate place

[zadok]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:32 PM, World Colonial said:

Yes, a very low proportion.  These are the ones collected most, being also included in reference books and registry sets.

Only a very low number of series have a high enough collector preference while also being affordable to a large enough collector base.  I'd rate US early large cents first followed by Capped Bust halves and early half cents.  Capped Bust halves are generically both common enough and cheap enough even in mid-circulated grades.  Early US copper has a high enough preference even in the lowest grades.

Good demand for early federal silver coinage across the board.  Earlier US gold is both too scarce and too expensive while Liberty Seated is a long series with too many scarce dates.  It's pointless to even attempt collecting a series by variety when the collector can't even (afford to) collect it by date.  That's the reality for practically every single world coin series I have attempted to collect since 1998, including those I collect now.  I never completed a single one.

The rest of US coinage isn't interesting enough.  That's what the evidence shows.

... very accurate assessment on the collector scope of the sets...right on, re the large cents, bust halves, half cents...of course the bust halves had the overton book early on to lead that collector base, us collectors love lists n album holes to fill much like bird watchers n their lists...early US gold is the epitome collection, rare expensive n almost not collectable, but there r those that attempt it n a few have succeeded...the Liberty Seated series, again accurate, long series n multi rare dates...the most challenging in my opinion, i have completed three of the LS series in my collecting lifetime, took a total of 25 years combined, i most likely wont try to do any of the other three, not enuf years left...mostly just doing date sets n die variety sets n die state sets, doable for the most part...my foreign sets diff story the drive is to complete n complete with as many top pops as possible, i believe i will live to see those finis...as for US modern , read 20th century, no way...boring n nothing truly rare...n then there r those little foreign 5-10 coin sets where every coin is rare, thats pure n true collecting....

[World Colonial]

On 7/5/2022 at 10:10 PM, Errorists said:

I collect both early and modern ones.

By die variety?

Given the size of the US collector base, I presume there is someone (at least one) collecting every US series in this manner but overwhelmingly, the number is immaterial due to lack of interest, cost, or feasibility.

For a US series, look at the Barber coinage as an example.  It has a respectable core following but not sufficient to create meaningful interest for die varieties.  Jeff Garret has an article in Coin Week advocating the design (not variety collecting) but his own words provide the best argument against it.  It's a rather long article but the part which matters most is the table with the estimated cost.  $5K to $50K from fine to AU.

There are still those who do it but in the 21st century, this type of collection is not competitive in this quality at anywhere near this cost.  I'd describe these grades in "no man's land", too expensive for low(er) budget collectors while those who can afford it mostly prefer better quality coinage or more design variety.  Collecting it by die variety makes it way too expensive for what the collection actually is as a collectible.

Jeff Garrett: Collecting Barber Coinage (coinweek.com)

[zadok]

On 7/6/2022 at 8:12 AM, World Colonial said:

By die variety?

Given the size of the US collector base, I presume there is someone (at least one) collecting every US series in this manner but overwhelmingly, the number is immaterial due to lack of interest, cost, or feasibility.

For a US series, look at the Barber coinage as an example.  It has a respectable core following but not sufficient to create meaningful interest for die varieties.  Jeff Garret has an article in Coin Week advocating the design (not variety collecting) but his own words provide the best argument against it.  It's a rather long article but the part which matters most is the table with the estimated cost.  $5K to $50K from fine to AU.

There are still those who do it but in the 21st century, this type of collection is not competitive in this quality at anywhere near this cost.  I'd describe these grades in "no man's land", too expensive for low(er) budget collectors while those who can afford it mostly prefer better quality coinage or more design variety.  Collecting it by die variety makes it way too expensive for what the collection actually is as a collectible.

Jeff Garrett: Collecting Barber Coinage (coinweek.com)

...barber club members mostly collect the series cause they love it, for most part they dont care what grades the coins r, obviously they strive to do uniform grades in their sets but take as much pride in a g4 set as a xf40 set...strange bunch of collectors but i like them all...as n aside, i am aware of one set( dimes), all of the coins r gem bu 65+s...

[World Colonial]

On 7/6/2022 at 9:34 AM, zadok said:

...barber club members mostly collect the series cause they love it, for most part they dont care what grades the coins r, obviously they strive to do uniform grades in their sets but take as much pride in a g4 set as a xf40 set...strange bunch of collectors but i like them all...as n aside, i am aware of one set( dimes), all of the coins r gem bu 65+s...

Yes, there are one or two mega threads on the PCGS forum though I have not read either.  I can infer from it and the existence of the Barber Collectors Society that you are correct.

The OP has asked a series of questions, first on errors and more recently on varieties.  I have attempted to explain why it isn't a mystery that this type of collecting isn't more "popular", as in widely practiced.

[Errorists]

I have bought old coinage from the 1800's with die cracks or cuds only to find out later they are varieties by accident..

[Henri Charriere]

@World Colonial:

The only reason why I do not formally follow you is because doing so would reflect poorly, on you. But I hang on your every word as your voice is like no other. I appreciate the fact you address all members, from all walks of life, evenly.  

Edited July 6, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Die polishing: complete spelling of word.

[Oldhoopster]

On 7/6/2022 at 11:54 AM, Errorists said:

I have bought old coinage from the 1800's with die cracks or cuds only to find out later they are varieties by accident..

There are reference books on most (all?) US series that Identify and categorize the various varieties, die pairings, etc.  I have many of these in my library and whenever I buy an early Large Cent, Bust Dime, Shield nickel for example, I always check and attribute the variety.  I've found some nice stuff that way.  

[Errorists]

On 7/6/2022 at 11:55 AM, Oldhoopster said:

There are reference books on most (all?) US series that Identify and categorize the various varieties, die pairings, etc.  I have many of these in my library and whenever I buy an early Large Cent, Bust Dime, Shield nickel for example, I always check and attribute the variety.  I've found some nice stuff that way.  

Found most on Ebay and Yahoo years ago.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Errorists

[World Colonial]

On 7/6/2022 at 12:25 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@World Colonial:

The only reason why I do not formally follow you is because doing so would reflect poorly, on you. But I hang on your every word as your voice is like no other. I appreciate the fact you address all members, from all walks of life, evenly.  

Thanks

What I cannot stand is obvious or intentional exaggeration, especially when I can reasonably infer it's for financial promotion.

There is a thread on the PCGS Forum which may not be active now.  The OP was asking about the financial potential of "world" coinage.  No specifics of course.

As usual, I was the only "naysayer", even though this includes everything I collect.  Another example of me providing specific arguments and evidence contradicting (implied) financial hyperbole while everyone else writes in the abstract to disagree with me.

Financially, I have taken the opposing side on pretty much everything.  (Haven't ever discussed ancients, tokens, or medals - yet.).  This includes South African coinage on that's country's forum during their bubble, US moderns multiple times, different US classic series, and "world" coinage ("modern" or "classic") also multiple times.

The one common theme with this subject is that others (who don't collect it yet) don't find the coins nearly as interesting as those who are advocating it.  This especially applies to any claims for non-collectors supposedly interested in some "mega priced" coin.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/6/2022 at 2:33 PM, World Colonial said:

As usual, I was the only "naysayer", even though this includes everything I collect.  Another example of me providing specific arguments and evidence contradicting (implied) financial hyperbole while everyone else writes in the abstract to disagree with me.

I don't recall seeing that thread but I would have been alongside you.  Also, others who agreed with you might have thought that you said it better than they could and thus didn't post.

If a thread disappears due to inactivity, I wouldn't assume others agreed or disagreed with the posts or others.  They may have missed it like I did or they may have thought they couldn't improve on anything you said/typed. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

On 7/10/2022 at 4:18 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't recall seeing that thread but I would have been alongside you.  Also, others who agreed with you might have thought that you said it better than they could and thus didn't post.

If a thread disappears due to inactivity, I wouldn't assume others agreed or disagreed with the posts or others.  They may have missed it like I did or they may have thought they couldn't improve on anything you said/typed. 

It was on the PCGS Forum.  Other have disagreed with my claims on world coinage here too.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/10/2022 at 7:17 PM, World Colonial said:

It was on the PCGS Forum.  Other have disagreed with my claims on world coinage here too.

I cannot say I agree or even disagree, but many of your comments have given me pause.  You march to the beat of a different drum. And if you speak up on a topic, I am inclined to listen.  😉