Wells Fargo Hoard 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/6/2023 at 8:07 PM, RWB said:

MCMVII HR were widely publicized and quickly brought a premium of $10 to $22. That's why none of them initially reached circulation - Treasury and Sub-Treasury clerks gobbled them up and resold for a nice profit. The bubble soon burst and $22 was about all that could be gotten.

I almost forgot...some people also probably bought them because ASG had died, and they realized it was his last work of art.  The Panic of 1907 and the collapse of Knickerbocker Trust also probably didn't hurt demand for gold...any gold.

Roger, would ANY of the coins have made it to a large bank like JP Morgan for their wealthy clients ?  Or did you have to physically visit a sub-Treasury or write-in for the coin ?  12,000+ mintage for a coin that will cost at least $20 isn't likely to be overwhelmed by demand, I would think.  Certainly, once the hype wore off, the price settled down.

I suspect demand overwhelmed supply initially because people wanted them but didn't know how or where to obtain them.  I've seen it with other limited edition items/collectibles pre-Internet.

Edited July 7, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/6/2023 at 8:07 PM, RWB said:

You'll have to check the SG book for the number of patterns. I forget....

Yup, 8 UHRs.....1 Liberty Headdress....and 2 Eagle $10 patterns (p. 23).

Your details on all the work and trial-and-error patterns before the UHR was really well-done.  Really was too bad ASG couldn't live long enough to see the MCMVII HR and then the low-reliefs get released.

[zadok]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:04 PM, RWB said:

In reality, many collectors likely asked the tooth fairy for one, but it took TR's order to make one available for Augusta Saint-Gaudens. It was not actually the predecessor to HR MCMVII or any coin. The MCMVII HR came from a second pair of models, of somewhat different design and relief. None of the pattern pieces made were preserved, so the MCMVII HR are the only progeny. (That is -- the EHR MCMVII was a dead end design.)

...isnt progeny closely related to descendants hence closely related to pedigree??...just wondering....

[zadok]

On 7/6/2023 at 2:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Technically you are true.  I guess that the collectors of the day included that pattern alongside coins.  Plus, it was sort of the predecessor of the MCMVII High Relief so even though it definitely was a pattern it's got lineage with the High Relief and other Saints.

From David Akers, probably based on his auction record work (published in books) as well as commentary from his deep contacts in the industry (i.e., Paramount).  The most noticeable thing, aside from the changing rankings over time, was how "stable" the place of the 1921 Saint is over time.  It's changed the least among the coins over 75-80 years, a point he made in numerous HA commentaries.

...ultimately, the collector decides what is or is not included in the various series...a good rule of thumb is...look at how the various albums r designed n u will get a feel what is collected n what is not included, correctly or not....im sure one could get a spirited discussion on the 1856 flying eagle cent as well....

[zadok]

On 7/6/2023 at 11:22 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Always good to see how Saint rankings in rarity have changed over time when discussing hoards:

 

Rarity Rankings, 1940's/1950's:

ULTRA-RARE….1924-S, 1926-D, 1926-S

SUPER-RARE….1921, 1927-S, 1931-D

RARE……………1925-D, 1927-D, 1930-S

SEMI-RARE……1922-S, 1929, 1931, 1932, 1920-S, 1908-S, 1924-D

 

Rarity Rankings, 1990’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1921

SUPER-RARE…….1920-S, 1931, 1932

RARE………………1931-D, 1927-S, 1926-D

SEMI-RARE………1929, 1908-S, 1925-S, 1925-D, 1909-D, 1926-S, 1924S

 

Rarity Rankings, 2020’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1932

SUPER-RARE….....1931, 1931-D, 1921 

RARE………………1920-S, 1927-S, 1929

SEMI-RARE………1926-D, 1925-D, 1926S, 1924-S, 1909-D, 1924-D, 1908-S

...the most interesting question to me..."how many new discoveries did it take to move the individual dates from one group to another?"...2, 4, 10????....

[RWB]

On 7/6/2023 at 10:52 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I almost forgot...some people also probably bought them because ASG had died, and they realized it was his last work of art.  The Panic of 1907 and the collapse of Knickerbocker Trust also probably didn't hurt demand for gold...any gold.

Roger, would ANY of the coins have made it to a large bank like JP Morgan for their wealthy clients ?  Or did you have to physically visit a sub-Treasury or write-in for the coin ?  12,000+ mintage for a coin that will cost at least $20 isn't likely to be overwhelmed by demand, I would think.  Certainly, once the hype wore off, the price settled down.

The connection with Saint-Gaudens was likely very limited for most -- some knew the name, but that was about all. (The knowledgeable had Century magazine to read.) The design was new, different, and the coin was unusual thus the immediate premium. The 1907 panic had little discernible influence on gold coin or currency.

Each sub-Treasury received at least 1 bag (250 coins, $5,000) which were supposed to be apportioned to National Banks and their correspondent banks. Few coins made it to any bank. I recall Republic Bank got a few, but they were gobbled up by employees. Wealthy could easily buy one with the premium.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/7/2023 at 10:56 AM, zadok said:

...the most interesting question to me..."how many new discoveries did it take to move the individual dates from one group to another?"...2, 4, 10????....

The big change was the 1950's and 1960's.  Saints like the 1924-S, 1926-S, and 1924-D (the Top 3 in the 1940's) were directly impacted by even a small find in the 1950's since it was assumed their total population was low single-digits.  Until the Secret Service got involved, some thought these coins were rarer than the 1933 DE (I guess they assumed a few 1933's got out). 

It wouldn't take many finds or hoards or actual coins to impact the price and rankings -- 2 or 3 or 4 coins could double the known population and crater the price (as happened).  Conversely, a coin that was ASSUMED to have dozens available that didn't -- the 1927-D -- after about 10 years of nobody finding any after WW II, shot up in the rankings and price.

Look at how the entire top ranking of my "Ultra Rare" coins goes down to the "Semi-Rare" (I probably should have used the word "scarce").

You could see the impact with 1 or 2 small finds impacting the price in the auctions of the late-1940's/early-1950's.  Coins catalogued for $1,500 would go begging for $600.  Individual buyers for those coins had gotten theirs already, unknown to the dealers/catalogers/sellers.  Roger's book mentions this as does the HA commentaries.

Edited July 7, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/7/2023 at 11:04 AM, RWB said:

I recall Republic Bank got a few, but they were gobbled up by employees. Wealthy could easily buy one with the premium.

I'm surprised that JP Morgan, who was a noted art collector, wasn't into coins.  Interesting.....

[RWB]

There were not enough coins for initial demand. Original buyers were interested in a quick profit. A Treasury clerk cold probably not afford to stash 1 or 2 pieces - that was a big chunk of his salary. Once that subsided, the HR pieces became a glut - there weren't enough real collectors to absorb 12k coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

More Saint hoard information by date:

1925-D:  Mini-hoards in 1950’s, larger European ones in 1960’s.  Merkers Mine Hoard may be responsible for all or many of the coins.  Most newly minted 1925-D double eagles were sent to Europe, and remained stored in banks, primarily in Switzerland and France.  

Analysis of auction and authentication records leads to the conclusion that nearly all known 1925-D double eagles came from European sources, possibly the Merkers Mine hoard. The few genuinely circulated coins are probably from the two cashier’s holdings as the result to payments for gold deposits. A small number of pieces – those now among the very best available – could have been secured direct from the Denver or Philadelphia Mint cashiers. Collectors and dealers of the time, especially those in the Philadelphia area, were known to frequent the mint looking for pieces for their collections. We also have indications that by 1924 or earlier, the Treasurer of the United States was securing new coins for “special purposes” including sale to collectors by mail and in person at the Treasury Cash Room in Washington, DC. The Denver Mint cashier’s statement indicated one 1925-D double eagle was paid out on March 16; possibly for Mr. Morgan’s collection. We also know that compartment #19 in the gold vault contained $30,750,000 in double eagles – probably of 1925 manufacture – that it had been sealed from July 3, 1925 to at least July 1, 1933.

1925-S:  1950’s mini-hoards.  "... the 1925-S is one of the major rarities in the series and has long been regarded as such. Even back in the 1940's it was considered a rarity, not as much so as the 1924-S, 1926-S, and 1926-D, but more or less on par with the 1924-D, 1931 and 1932. I do not recall ever seeing or hearing of any hoards of this issue, not even from the 1950's or 1960's when quantities of many of the Saint-Gaudens issues previously thought to be rare were discovered in European banks." - Akers

In the 1940s, the 1924-S and 1926-D were perceived as the ultimate rarities of the Saint-Gaudens series, and when those dates became more available due to European finds, the previously unappreciated 1927-D was waiting to assume the mantle.

Since virtually all of the specimens later found in Europe were typically in the grades from AU50 to MS62, the 1925-S is still rare today in MS63 and very rare in MS64. 

1926:  Last of big exports of gold coins went overseas as part of Dawes Plan to support Weimar Germany.  The 1926 Saints are another mintage that escaped the 1937 Treasury melting because they were overseas.

Overall analysis of authentication and auction records indicate that surviving 1926 double eagles came from South American and European central banks in almost equal quantities. This is not especially unusual given the direct U.S. – South American trade, and indirect Europe–South American trade of the 1920s. Of the latter, purchases of grain from Argentina by Germany (and Britain to a lesser extent) may have transferred new U.S. coins to stable vaults in the Americas. 

The last of large American loans went to Germany in 1926. This totaled $45 million in gold coins and was the only large shipment of coins to Europe for the year. Over three years $111,391,000 in coins, almost entirely double eagles, was sent to support the Deutsches Reich (Weimar Republic). The money loaned to Germany helped only a little and additional loans were negotiated so that interest on the first loans could be paid. Germany used U.S. gold to buy food and limited quantities of industrial materials throughout Europe, and rebuild its manufacturing infrastructure. These types of purchases fueled multiple European interbank transfers that created many of the “bank-circulated” double eagles seen in European hoards.

1926-D:  European mini-hoards reduced rarity but not at MS66 level (2).  A few came out of Swiss banks after WWII, but not enough to supply an ever-burgeoning demand.  Prior to the discovery of the small hoards in Europe, the 1926-D was considered to be one of the three greatest rarities in the series, second only to the 1924-S and slightly more rare than the 1926-S. It was also thought to be more rare than the 1920-S, 1921, and 1927-D, the three most valuable regular issues of the series today.

The Green specimen realized $2,500 in 1949, the second highest price in that sale behind a proof 1858 eagle that realized $4,250.

David Akers recounts in the Heritage Duckor collection catalog that somewhat later, an Ohio collector “paid only $500 for what is now one of the finest 1926-D’s, indicating he probably purchased it in the early 1950s after the value of a 1926-D had dropped dramatically due to the initial discovery of some small hoards of the issue in Europe.”

Prior to the discovery of the small hoards in Europe, the 1926-D was considered to be one of the three greatest rarities in the series, second only to the 1924-S and slightly more rare than the 1926-S.

1926-S:  1950’s mini-hoards.  Scarcity drops.  Like many dates from the 1920s, the 1926-S began to turn up in European holdings in the 1950s, and its rarity as a date has declined over the years.

[GoldFinger1969]

Let's take it up to 1930 with the next-to-last batch of hoards by date:

1927:   "....An examination of pre-1960 auction listings is instructive; the earliest auction record in the David Akers United States Gold Coins reference, the 1941 Dunham Collection sold by B. Max Mehl, is listed in the catalog as "very scarce," and Stack's used an identical phrase to describe the issue in 1944 for the J.F. Bell auction catalog. The impact of 1960s repatriation is especially noticeable in the auction records compiled by Akers: The trickle of auction appearances in the 1940's and 1950s, fewer than one a year for each decade, turns into a steady stream through the 1960s and then a torrent in the 1970s." 

1927-D:  Not a single 1927-D ever turned up in any overseas hoards. It appears that most of the surviving 1927-D double eagles ultimately derive from collectors who obtained them directly from the Denver Mint or the Treasurer’s office in Washington.  In the 1940s, the 1924-S and 1926-D were perceived as the ultimate rarities of the Saint-Gaudens series, and when those dates became more available due to European finds, the previously unappreciated 1927-D was waiting to assume the mantle.

1927-S:   Only a small number of examples surfaced in European holdings in the 1950s.  David Akers, a principal of the Paramount International Coin Company, was privy to many records of transactions between Jim Kelly and Paul Wittlin, who was the main conduit for bringing European holdings to the U.S. coin market. In Price List 8 (Paramount,1974), Akers made the following observations about the 1927-S:

"This is the first example of this rare date that we have owned in several years and even when we were regularly receiving shipments of rare double eagles from our European buyer Paul Wittlin, the 1927-S was conspicuous by its absence although in such shipments we received as many as six 1921's at one time or two 1870-CC's, or half a dozen 1891's! Of course, the days of such shipments are far behind us and will never be repeated again, but the fact remains that even in those bountiful days the 1927-S was seldom sent to us and this is a strong indicator of the coin's rarity."

In the 1950s one or two pieces at a time of the 1927-S began to show up in European gold holdings. But, unlike the 1922-S and 1926-S, it never appeared in quantity, and its rarity status has remained constant through the years. There were enough returned from Europe, however, to greatly alter the overall population rarity of the 1927-S. Now, instead of only 10-12 known, there are more like 150-200, meaning the 1927-S is considered moderately rare today rather than the great rarity it once was thought to be.

1928:  Roughly half of the 1928 mintage was released to Federal Reserve Banks for commercial distribution in the year of production. But, approximately $50,000,000 was shipped from the mint in small quantities and much of it likely ended up in private hoards in Europe, South America and Canada. Foreign hoarding and low domestic interest rates combined to increase overseas demand for U.S. gold coins. But 1928 would be the last year until 1932 of substantial export of gold coins.

The great equalizer (or perhaps great randomizer) is the pattern of international commerce that sent millions of gold coins overseas and out of the reach of the Roosevelt Administration's gold recall. The pattern was centered on the Northeast and the great commercial nexus of New York City, and double eagles from the nearby Philadelphia Mint were far more likely to survive in European storage (the greatest source of repatriation) than were coins from mountainous Denver or Pacific-facing San Francisco. Time, too, has its role: The 1927 double eagle saw widespread overseas use, but the 1928 twenty had less opportunity for a commercial jaunt before the debilitating Great Depression of 1929. The 1928 is the last issue to be available in type quantities, and any later-dated coin is a melt rarity commanding a five-figure price.

1929:  80 coins found in 1980’s, another 10 in 1990’s.  1984 “English Hoard” was fake from Fenton to Gillio to Breen. Numerous hoards of 1929’s have been uncovered in Europe since the 1950s while very few examples, if any, of the 1931 were ever found from similar sources.

This is no doubt due to the significant number of specimens returned from Europe over the years; many more examples of the 1929 were found there than of the other four later dates. However, back in the 1940s, when dealers were really just starting to get a handle on the relative rarity of the various Saint-Gaudens issues (they knew mintage figures were of no use in that regard), the 1929 was thought to be much less rare than the 1931-D and 1930-S but otherwise comparable to both the 1931 and 1932. Today, estimates vary wildly as to how many 1929 double eagles exist. PCGS estimates the population at over 900 pieces and Dave Bowers states in his double eagle book that 1,250 to 1,750 exist. Those numbers seem awfully high to some who would place the number more in the 300-400 range.

1929 saw continued contraction in gold coin exports and a surge in loan repayments from South America. Total gold coin exports sank from $143,190,361 in 1928 to just $7,145,103 in 1929.

Edited August 1, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Final Hoard commentaries, 1930-33:

1930-S:  4 Wittlin coins from European private hands but not a commercial hoard.

There was no demand for double eagles in the Depression Era economy and it is virtually certain that all the coins held in Mint vaults were later melted into gold bars, after the Gold Recall of 1933. Very few examples have been repatriated from European holdings, and those coins were probably from private collections, not the result of international commerce. In his Handbook of 20th Century United States Gold Coins, David Akers notes: 

"The 1930-S is by far the rarest of the 1929-1932 issues in this series and, discounting the essentially uncollectible 1933, only the 1927-D is rarer when we consider the entire Saint-Gaudens series." 

PCGS CoinFacts estimates the surviving population of the 1930-S at 50-75 examples in all grades. PCGS and NGC have combined to certify a total of 69 examples between them, including an unknown number of resubmissions and crossovers (8/19). Roger Burdette notes nine coins are held in institutional collections, including three in the Smithsonian and one in the ANS.

Akers:  "....Paul Wittlin, for example, the buyer in Europe for James Kelly and later Paramount for over 20 years, had the best connections with the major banks of anyone, and if 1930-S double eagles were there to be found, he would have bought them. I am not absolutely certain that he didn't find one or more examples of the 1930-S but, from the records of his purchases that I saw, I don't recall even one in any of the shipments he sent back to the U.S."

1931:  Treasurer’s office in Washington DC had names and addresses of direct purchasers of Double Eagles. RWB's DE book traces a few coins back to their original owners. The table provides the name, city of residence, date of purchase and quantity purchased for 1931.  Most are mail-order sales (not in-person).

Additionally, fifty pieces were released from the Treasurer’s Office to the Treasury Cashier in Washington, DC where they were used as part of normal counter cash. Over-the-counter purchases made with gold certificates likely transpired between July 28, 1932 and the end of February 1933. These coins were either taken abroad or kept unobtrusively in the U.S. This might also be the source of a small group of coins discovered in the 1980s, or of pieces that came on the market via James G. Macallister, Max Berenstein and Jack Rubin in 1936.

The table in Roger's book includes only coins that can be identified and not anonymous sales.  22 sold directly with names/addresses.

Nearly all known 1931 double eagles are uncirculated with a preponderance of them grading MS63 or better. It is much more rare in terms of overall population rarity than the 1929, numerous hoards of which have been uncovered in Europe since the 1950s while very few examples, if any, of the 1931 were ever found from similar sources.

1931-D:  In the early-1950s small quantities of the 1931-D first began showing up in European banks. Over the next two decades, a couple of mini-hoards of the '31-D were discovered, but relatively few of these pieces graded better than Choice Uncirculated and the majority were heavily marked and / or lackluster. Despite the emergence of a hoard of 15-20 pieces in 1984, the 1931-D continues to hold its place as the second rarest Saint-Gaudens double eagle from the Denver Mint today.

1980’s repatriation from Europe but maybe domestically sourced.  Small hoards.   Bauman @ MTB said he knew of a 40-50 coin hoard.  1984 mini-hoard of 15-20 coins.  Mostly MS63/65 and a few gems.

In 1984 a small group of fifteen to twenty 1931-Ds surfaced in the numismatic market. Discovery of those new coins brought the population of the 1931-D into close alignment with double eagles of 1931 and 1932.

In a survey of 152 auctions from 1937 to 1944, there were only three appearances of the 1931-D. The first was in Morgenthau’s New York Collection, Part II in 1939 [Sale Number 399 (Morgenthau, 5/1939).

At the time of the 1984 find, Heritage Auctions Co-Chairman Jim Halperin stated,

David Akers commented in the Heritage Duckor Collection catalog:

Among the five famous late date Saint-Gaudens issues, the 1931-D is the fourth rarest overall, more rare than only the 1929 in terms of the total number of pieces known. This is due to the discovery of a number of MS62 to MS64 examples that were found in small hoards over the past 30 years (1982-2012). Gerald Bauman, former Chief Numismatist of MTB, also once assured me that he knew of the existence of a hoard consisting of approximately 40-50 examples of the 1931-D of similar quality to the earlier hoards but I do not know whether or not that group has been sold since that time. Although only fourth in terms of population rarity among the late dates, the 1931-D is exceeded in rarity only by the 1930-S in gem MS65 condition while in superb MS66 condition the 1931-D is perhaps the rarest.

Until recently the 1931-D was considered rarer than the 1931 and 1932. Then a small hoard appeared in Zurich, making it more available than previously thought. The story (as far as it is known) was told in last year's FUN Signature, which we repeat here:

"In 1982, Akers reported the 1931-D was the fourth-rarest date in the series, with perhaps 35-40 examples known, considerably more elusive than its Philadelphia counterparts from 1931 and 1932. This situation changed in 1984, when a small hoard of 15-20 1931-Ds surfaced in the numismatic market. The discovery of those new coins brought the population of the 1931-D into close alignment with the 1931 and 1932.

"Heritage Co-Chairman Jim Halperin states, 'When the hoard appeared I quickly adjusted my thinking regarding their market value as a result of the sudden spurt in availability ... I think they were mostly 63-64 quality with maybe a few Gems.' The hoard was reported as a Midwestern find by Walter Breen, but Marc Emory, the Director of European Operations for Heritage, remembers handling a few of the last, not from the Midwest. Breen may have confused the 1931-D group with a hoard of 1928 double eagles (25 pieces in an original bank bag) that surfaced in 1985 in Elyria, Ohio."

1932:  Spencer S. March Hoard of Newark, NJ (50 coins belonging to NJ banker).  Del Valle / Beverly Hills SDB has 1 1932 coin stored for 40 years found in 2013.

Three times the number of 1931 coins were distributed from the Treasurer than for 1932-dated pieces. However, a much greater percentage of 1932 double eagles appear to have survived the ravages of time. The result is that the two coins have similar populations of existing pieces and thus appear to have similar origins. The fifty-coin “hoard” owned by Spencer S. Marsh (Sr.) of Newark NJ is probably the source of the best-preserved pieces.

Tom DeLory relates how he examined a small hoard of individual double eagles in Chicago in July 1986. Among many common date coins were one each 1927-S, 1929, 1930-S, 1931, 1931-D and 1932. The entire collection eventually we purchased and it was dispersed at the 1986 ANA convention in Milwaukee.

113 double eagles paid out with addresses and names.   

Hoards in Europe and later Central America, but not the 1932 and so the perceived rarity of the 1932 in comparison to other issues went up considerably. Now, it is the third rarest regular issue date in the entire series after the 1927-D and 1930-S when only the total known population is considered. In terms of only the five late dates, it is considered the second most rare after the 1930-S but perhaps the most "common" of the five in gem MS65 and superb MS66 condition although the 1931 is similarly rare at both those grade levels.

1933:  Langbord Hoard, currently in Fort Knox.

[GoldFinger1969]

Japanese/Philipine Gold Hoard:  I saw a History Channel show called "History's Greatest Mysteries" and it focused on lost gold hoarded/hid during WW II.   Believed to be hoarded by Japan's General Yamasheeta during WW II, most of this is believed to be statues, gold bars, gold nuggets, etc. 

Not much talk about gold coins, but who knows ?   Much less documentation than plundered gold in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaa's_gold

Edited August 13, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 8/12/2023 at 6:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Japanese/Philipine Gold Hoard:  I saw a History Channel show called "History's Greatest Mysteries" and it focused on lost gold hoarded/hid during WW II.   Believed to be hoarded by Japan's General Yamaa during WW II, most of this is beleived to be statues, gold bars, gold nuggets, etc. 

Not much talk about gold coins, but who knows ?   Much less documentation than plundered gold in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaa's_gold

Do you mean Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto?

See my JNR issue 2013 with these two lengthy factual articles, not the Not-Quite-History Channel bologna:

Saving Manila’s Golden Treasure

Silver Divers of Corregidor, 1942

Edited August 12, 2023 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/12/2023 at 7:39 PM, RWB said:

Do you mean Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto?

No, I meant General Tomoyuki Yamasheeta, an army guy executed for war crimes in 1946.  Yamamoto I know got shot down in the Pacific.

I changed the spelling but it didn't hold for some reason. 

But thanks for the article info ! 

Edit:  Now I see why, the spell-check thinks I am writing a bad word !!  I mispelled it with "e" instead of "i" to escape the Artificial Intelligence which isn't that intelligent !! 

Edited August 13, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 8/12/2023 at 7:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

No, I meant General Tomoyuki Yamasheeta, an army guy executed for war crimes in 1946.  Yamamoto I know got shot down in the Pacific.

I changed the spelling but it didn't hold for some reason. 

But thanks for the article info ! 

Edit:  Now I see why, the spell-check thinks I am writing a bad word !!  I mispelled it with "e" instead of "i" to escape the Artificial Intelligence which isn't that intelligent !! 

Human Stupidity will ALWAYS overwhelm Artificial Intelligence. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting, a generous poster here sent me some auction catalogs (thanks again !!  ) and I noticed that Ron Gillio now works for Stacks-Bowers Galleries. 

Maybe he's been there a while, but I didn't know it.  I know over time many of these 1 or 2-man shops are very fluid...changing ownership...merging or de-merging...etc.

Maybe David can get him to give up more details on the WF Hoard. 

[GoldFinger1969]

List of prominent hoards from the 1800's to the present, some gold some silver:

https://www.govmint.com/coin-authority/post/lost-treasures-famous-american-coin-and-buried-treasure-hoards

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2023 at 11:11 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

List of prominent hoards from the 1800's to the present, some gold some silver:

https://www.govmint.com/coin-authority/post/lost-treasures-famous-american-coin-and-buried-treasure-hoards

Some fleeting thoughts...

It seems to me the overwhelming majority of owners of hoards, however large or small, do not personally benefit from their accumulations. One typical example: L. Redfield (of the Redfield Hoard, 1974) whose estate was auctioned off for $7.3 millioc

The kicker in this list arrives unobtrusively on little cat feet at the very end in a cleverly-worded statement... "If you know of a coin hoard, contact an expert in handling large numbers of very special coins -- GovMint.com!"  🤣

[zadok]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:19 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Some fleeting thoughts...

It seems to me the overwhelming majority of owners of hoards, however large or small, do not personally benefit from their accumulations. One typical example: L. Redfield (of the Redfield Hoard, 1974) whose estate was auctioned off for $7.3 millioc

The kicker in this list arrives unobtrusively on little cat feet at the very end in a cleverly-worded statement... "If you know of a coin hoard, contact an expert in handling large numbers of very special coins -- GovMint.com!"  🤣

...Lavere's total estate realized in excess of $100million, the silver dollars were sold initially for $7.3million n later resold for approx $20million, Lavere's  investment in the silver dollars was $400,000...a tidy profit return...try to get ur facts straight or maybe refrain from addressing issues u r not familiar with rather than adding to the pollution on the forum, it already has more than enuf incorrect information floating on its surface....

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2023 at 3:03 PM, zadok said:

...Lavere's total estate realized in excess of $100million, the silver dollars were sold initially for $7.3million n later resold for approx $20million, Lavere's  investment in the silver dollars was $400,000...a tidy profit return...try to get ur facts straight or maybe refrain from addressing issues u r not familiar with rather than adding to the pollution on the forum, it already has more than enuf incorrect information floating on its surface....

A pleasure hearing from you, as always.  The entire point of my fleeting thought -- I associate "hoards" with the dead and "collections" with those who are alive or have heirs -- was to simply note the fact that it appears death intervened before the owner was able to enjoy the fruits of his labor. This would include buried treasures, hidden treasures secreted in walls or floorboards and coins deposited in coal chutes which led to specially constructed inaccessible vaults.  I am delighted to hear Mr. Redfield, successful in his own right, lived a long, happy, healthy and prosperous life.

[GoldFinger1969]

I guess if the hoard was "hoarded" it was an insurance policy for the owners.  If they needed it, it wouldn't be hidden in a crawl space (Baltimore) or in a bunch of cans on a hill (Saddle Ridge).  Would have been in a more accessible place, I would guess, if they needed to dip into it from time-to-time.

That Baltimore Hoard was fascinating. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 10/21/2023 at 6:15 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I guess if the hoard was "hoarded" it was an insurance policy for the owners.  If they needed it, it wouldn't be hidden in a crawl space (Baltimore) or in a bunch of cans on a hill (Saddle Ridge).  Would have been in a more accessible place, I would guess, if they needed to dip into it from time-to-time.

That Baltimore Hoard was fascinating. 

...hoards r mostly owned by those that do not trust banks or the federal govt...with good reason, self included...hoards r there when all else has failed e.g. when the entire electrical grid fails n nothing digital is accessible, when gas pumps/electric chargers dont work, when atms dont illuminate, when cash registers dont cha-ching..does anyone seriously believe that this country can ever provide a grid capable of keeping 100million plus ev's charged?...those that have generators n gasoline reserves n possibly solar panels n guns/ammo will stay warm n fed...while the general lemming populace actually swallows up the garbage about ev's that require more carbon to make than they can save in their expected lifetimes continue on their merry way to oblivion those that think for themselves, the "hoarders", r preparing for the consequences...

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2023 at 6:15 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I guess if the hoard was "hoarded" it was an insurance policy for the owners.  If they needed it, it wouldn't be hidden in a crawl space (Baltimore) or in a bunch of cans on a hill (Saddle Ridge).  Would have been in a more accessible place, I would guess, if they needed to dip into it from time-to-time.

That Baltimore Hoard was fascinating. 

There are no hard-and-fast Rules regarding hoards.  No "Hoards for Dummies" or "Hoards made Simple."  The simplest reason for the existence of a hoard is security, e.g., stuffing one's mattress.  In wartime, the rationale would be the hope of returning and recovering it one day. Sometimes that is not possible. Very often these schemes, especially if illegal, backfire spectacularly.  Is there an as yet unrecoverable treasure buried deep within a pit on Oak Island?  The legend of D. B. Cooper is alive and well in the Pacific Northwest... but where is the skyjacker's $240,000? One of the more notable multi-million dollar gold "hoards" was one few knew about until it was recovered from the rubble of 4 WTC, after the 9/11 attacks. [Thanks for bringing the membership up-to-speed on the latest in hoardology!]. 

[zadok]

On 10/21/2023 at 4:09 PM, Henri Charriere said:

A pleasure hearing from you, as always.  The entire point of my fleeting thought -- I associate "hoards" with the dead and "collections" with those who are alive or have heirs -- was to simply note the fact that it appears death intervened before the owner was able to enjoy the fruits of his labor. This would include buried treasures, hidden treasures secreted in walls or floorboards and coins deposited in coal chutes which led to specially constructed inaccessible vaults.  I am delighted to hear Mr. Redfield, successful in his own right, lived a long, happy, healthy and prosperous life.

...the alive r just the pre-dead, collections n especially "hoards" r not intended to be liquidated during the owners lifetime, thats not their purpose...just like my collections n my "roosters"  wont be placed back on the market during my nor ur lifetime, those decisions rest solely with my heirs...the fruits of my labor rest mostly in their ownership....

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:03 PM, zadok said:

...hoards r mostly owned by those that do not trust banks or the federal govt...with good reason, self included...hoards r there when all else has failed e.g. when the entire electrical grid fails n nothing digital is accessible, when gas pumps/electric chargers dont work, when atms dont illuminate, when cash registers dont cha-ching..does anyone seriously believe that this country can ever provide a grid capable of keeping 100million plus ev's charged?...those that have generators n gasoline reserves n possibly solar panels n guns/ammo will stay warm n fed...while the general lemming populace actually swallows up the garbage about ev's that require more carbon to make than they can save in their expected lifetimes continue on their merry way to oblivion those that think for themselves, the "hoarders", r preparing for the consequences...

If I may, I should like to respond to this rather dismal prognosis with an obscure quote from former president Dwight Eisenhower which, in substance, read:  Perfect security is serving a sentence of life in a Federal penitentiary.  If it is a comfort to anyone within the sound of my voice... you have Nothing to worry about.  Why I personally guarantee it!  

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:14 PM, zadok said:

...the alive r just the pre-dead, collections n especially "hoards" r not intended to be liquidated during the owners lifetime, thats not their purpose...just like my collections n my "roosters"  wont be placed back on the market during my nor ur lifetime, those decisions rest solely with my heirs...the fruits of my labor rest mostly in their ownership....

While I do not believe all hoarding activity has a common motive, I believe your intentions are honorable and admirable and a fine testament to your character.

[zadok]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:27 PM, Henri Charriere said:

If I may, I should like to respond to this rather dismal prognosis with an obscure quote from former president Dwight Eisenhower which, in substance, read:  Perfect security is serving a sentence of life in a Federal penitentiary.  If it is a comfort to anyone within the sound of my voice... you have Nothing to worry about.  Why I personally guarantee it!  

...tell that to jeffrey epstein, he may beg to differ...

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:37 PM, zadok said:

...tell that to jeffrey epstein, he may beg to differ...

He was a pre-trial detainee being held in a jail as opposed to a sentenced inmate being held in a prison or penitentiary. Ironically, something good came of the incident.  The Attorney General authorized an investigation which resulted in its closure.  I take it you take issue with the one-time Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in the European theater's assertion.

To the OP:  You are sorely missed.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:03 PM, zadok said:

...hoards r mostly owned by those that do not trust banks or the federal govt...with good reason, self included...hoards r there when all else has failed e.g. when the entire electrical grid fails n nothing digital is accessible, when gas pumps/electric chargers dont work, when atms dont illuminate, when cash registers dont cha-ching..does anyone seriously believe that this country can ever provide a grid capable of keeping 100million plus ev's charged?...those that have generators n gasoline reserves n possibly solar panels n guns/ammo will stay warm n fed...while the general lemming populace actually swallows up the garbage about ev's that require more carbon to make than they can save in their expected lifetimes continue on their merry way to oblivion those that think for themselves, the "hoarders", r preparing for the consequences...

Excellent points. 

Also consider the times of when these hoards were stashed....today, you're more likely to see hoards in SDBs or a home safe or hidden in part of a house rather than buried or put in a crawl space.