Wells Fargo Hoard 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/1/2022 at 6:37 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

If you would, I would like to have a better understanding of how the importation of a "hoard" is accomplished.I 

I just have what I picked up from Bowers' and Roger's books on Double Eagles.  I'm not sure if bags or small numbers of coins (a few dozen) need to go through customs or anything.

On 12/1/2022 at 6:37 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Did someone accompany these coins through Customs?  What kind of paperwork would he be expected to provide?  The coins had to have been declared, but would they be taxed or assessed fees? If it had been me, would I be asked where I had gotten them from and to whom I intended to deliver them? Must someone be prepared to provide documentation as to how and when he had acquired a "hoard"? Must a complete inventory of the cache by date and number be provided?  Are we talking something a bit more complicated than Quintus Arrius arriving aboard an airliner in Miami with a passport and CBP forms accompanied by a [reinforced]  suitcase?

No idea about Customs (I think not)....no idea on paperwork (I would think none except between buyer and seller)....I don't know about "declaring" them; it's a private transaction....you might be ASKED but you aren't under any obligation to give documentation (you can always lie ).....I doubt from what Roger says that either Gillio or the sellers would want to divulge where the coins came from (if the seller got them from a bank after saying they were merely bullion but in reality were worth 2x that amount then trouble )....cache and date (I doubt it; again, the sellers want to just get rid of the coins and get their $$$).

There are details on the 1908 No-Motto Wells Fargo Hoard that have never been told by Gillio.  Maybe he was sworn to secrecy because the sellers feared for their lives or might owe taxes or hoodwinked a bank or government official.  Only Ron Gillio can tell us why he won't give more details leading up to the transaction.

[GoldFinger1969]

If this is true -- and I have no reason to doubt David Bowers, his passion and integrity seem unparalleled -- for a while, even up to the early-1960's, the trade bags of Double Eagles and other U.S. gold coins were still there in bulk.  You could apparently buy thousands, even tens of thousands, no problem.

I wonder if there wasn't interest because most of them were commons/generic years/worn....they may have only wanted the more scarce and rare.

Q. David Bowers, COINWORLD November 2015: 

“In 1961, Europe was a fertile hunting ground for American coin dealers. In London there were many American Colonial and early federal coins to be had from the three leading dealers — Spink, Seaby and Baldwin. In Switzerland, banks had gold coins, mainly double eagles, that had been in storage for decades.

There was no difference in price between an EF coin and one that was lustrous Mint State, all were the Swiss equivalent of, say, $40.25.  I asked how many I could buy at the ask price, and the officer said that right now he could confirm an order for 100,000 coins, but for a larger quantity he would have to leave the room to check!”

[Henri Charriere]

Hoards of gold are waltzed thru Customs and welcomed with open arms but ol' Q.A. places an order with an internationally recognized coin emporium and his three gold Roosters are seized at Newark and he is ordered to submit to an interrogation over the phone, or else the Roosters go back in five days.  I don't get it; I guess I never will.  (Oh, and I had to pay some type of tariff for $33.  I still wonder what that was all about.) 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/7/2022 at 6:21 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Hoards of gold are waltzed thru Customs and welcomed with open arms but ol' Q.A. places an order with an internationally recognized coin emporium and his three gold Roosters are seized at Newark and he is ordered to submit to an interrogation over the phone, or else the Roosters go back in five days.  I don't get it; I guess I never will.  (Oh, and I had to pay some type of tariff for $33.  I still wonder what that was all about.) 

Is that true ?   Why were they seized ?  How did they know what was in the package ?

How long ago ?

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/7/2022 at 8:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is that true ?   Why were they seized ?  How did they know what was in the package ?

How long ago ?

I provided an account of what had occurred on another thread in early 2020, I believe.

The dealer I purchased the coins from was affiliated with MA-SHOPS.  I received a notice one day saying my shipment, sent via DHL was returned for unspecified reasons. I shrugged my shoulders and simply suggested they use any other means of available transport. They chose FedEx. In due course, I got a call from FedEx in Newark stating a package with no return address had arrived, which also lacked documentation.  They proceeded to ask me my name, DOB, SSN, address, whether I was acting at someone else's behest, etc., and quickly considering my options on my feet, knew they were lying but what could I do? They were sending me forms from CBP to fill out,  which were even more intrusive, with the warning that failure to comply would result in the shipment being returned in 5 days. I went to a FedEx office where a clerk produced hard copies of the 4-page form e-mailed to me, filled them out in a city park, photographed them on the pavement, returned to the office where they faxed them in, free of charge.  I asked the clerk if she had ever seen such forms before, or had encountered a situation like mine. She said she had not.

The shipment arrived at my house and, not surprisingly, it bore a quite legible, plain-as-day, return address and contained all the required documentation placed in a standard mailing bag firmly taped to the exterior.

Weeks later, I got a bill for $33. I'd've had a better shot at understanding what for had it been written in cuneiform.

It was fellow member Conder101 who, having read my account, helpfully stated the action taken was wrong and provided me with the relevant law to support his assertion. Human nature being what it is, I was so pleased to get the shipment of top-tier Roosters which instantly rocketed me to first place on the west coast, that I let the matter ride figuring that the fee extorted from me paled into comparison with the total cost of the acquisition.

I also inadvertently realized something I had kept to myself since: every shipment I had ever received previously from abroad (none to my recollection, via FedEx) stated the contents were "Documents."  This is not exactly untruthful.  The questioned package, as I recall stated, "collectible coins."  Those who detained the package knew that and a simple x-ray would have confirmed that fact, but why any of this happened, and the pointed questions inquiring as to whether I was acting as an individual or business, and if not a business, at whose behest, threw me off.  When I indicated the coins had numismatic value, thus the term "collectible," they had no idea what I meant. They asked me exactly how many such collectibles I had acquired from abroad previously. (I would rather not disclose that here as my reply would tend to incriminate me.)      I am only happy this came at the conclusion to my set-building endeavor. I found the entire experience to be quite intimidating as I never anticipated being asked questions like that over the phone, by a perfect stranger, there and then, and again on forms with sand running out of the time clock...

Not exactly Wells Fargo Hoard-related but a cautionary tale for those who do business internationally.  (In all fairness, many of MA-SHOPS affiliates invoices contain wording I had previously never paid attention to. Something to the effect that they are not responsible for any VAT or fees exacted on the receiving end.)  Anyway, I have the complete documentation attending every purchase I have ever made [including packages that required a signature which was apparently overlooked and placed in my mailbox.]  🐓 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

It seems the lack of return address caused the problem, but putting it out there could be an indication of what is inside.

You need a phony return address name if you are into gold or jewelry....like.....JOE'S DISCOUNT GROCERY COUPONS 

[VKurtB]

On 12/7/2022 at 5:21 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Hoards of gold are waltzed thru Customs and welcomed with open arms but ol' Q.A. places an order with an internationally recognized coin emporium and his three gold Roosters are seized at Newark and he is ordered to submit to an interrogation over the phone, or else the Roosters go back in five days.  I don't get it; I guess I never will.  (Oh, and I had to pay some type of tariff for $33.  I still wonder what that was all about.) 

Import duty?

[VKurtB]

On 12/7/2022 at 7:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is that true ?   Why were they seized ?  How did they know what was in the package ?

How long ago ?

It is legally required to state on ALL import packages what is inside. My wife sends stitching supplies and patterns to a friend in Australia and is required to disclose the contents of the package. Why would coins coming from Europe be any different? When I get coins shipped from the Royal Mint to the U.S., the same applies. Importing and exporting is a pain in the backside. It always has been. At least if done legally. There is a word for doing it otherwise - smuggling. 
 

See United States Department of Commerce Form 7525-V. The Shipper’s Export Declaration. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/7/2022 at 11:19 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It seems the lack of return address caused the problem, but putting it out there could be an indication of what is inside.

You need a phony return address name if you are into gold or jewelry....like.....JOE'S DISCOUNT GROCERY COUPONS 

No, contrary to what I was told over the phone, the shipment arrived...and there was a return address as well as documents stating exactly what the contents were.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Import duty?

I don't know. . . I don't know. That order was placed quite some time ago.  This never happened with any other purchase I had ever made from an overseas source.  [I will make a note of the info you provided.  Tks!]

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Import duty?

I would have to take another look at the pertinent section of law Conder101 provided me.  If memory serves, the coins were legally exempt.  

[VKurtB]

On 12/8/2022 at 1:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I would have to take another look at the pertinent section of law Conder101 provided me.  If memory serves, the coins were legally exempt.  

Currency might be. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Import duty?

I take the liberty of quoting Conder101 who, in replying to a Aug. 11, 2021 query posed by edG_Ohio on a related matter, stated...

"... other than for some coins on cultural heritage restriction lists (or counterfeits) there are no restrictions or duties on coins being imported into the U.S."  (Empasis mine.)

[GoldFinger1969]

Saint-Gaudens Hoard By Dates:  More hoard tidbits for the next coins in the series for which I have hoard info:

 

1909-S:  David Akers wrote of handling several hundred 1909-S hoard coins at one time, usually graded in the low-60’s, from the MTB 1983 Hoard.  A typical 1909-S double eagle is well struck with good detail in most areas except the torch hand and top of the torch. Surfaces often display mint frost tinged with red-gold and this is usually associated with coins from the El Salvador Hoard discovered in 1983.

 

1910:  A few thousand uncirculated/MS coins were found in the 1990’s via European banks  Mostly MS60-63.   The 1990s European bank coins were abraded from handling and transport. These were consistent with the large majority of European bank hoards from decades earlier and grade between MS60 and MS63 or occasionally MS64. 

 

Correlation with authentication company and auction records indicates that of the total mintage for the 1910, approximately 400,000 coins were shipped to Europe in exchange payments and 64,000 were sent to Central or South America. Only a small proportion of coins ever circulated in the United States or Canada.

 

1910-D:  Numerous uncirculated 1910-D double eagles remain from consolidated bags that resided in European banks until sometime after World War II.  Could have come from the Kaiseroda Mine Hoard. Most of these grade between MS61 and MS64, though gems do occasionally appear on the market.

 

1910-S:  A small hoard of about 100 uncirculated pieces turned up in a Swiss bank in 1981. Also a group of 1,000 coins (four mint bags) was discovered in Central America in 1983. Consequently, the 1910-S is relatively common in uncirculated condition, at least through the near-gem level of preservation. Many more were evidently returned to the United States, probably from Europe, based on the condition of the coins.

 

At least a few coins were acquired by collectors at the time of issue. Coin collector John M. Clapp’s acquisition notes state that he purchased his 1910-S double eagle directly from the San Francisco Mint in 1910. Others might have acquired coins in person or by mail from the mint, or from the pyx coins for those who were members of the Annual Assay Commission for 1911.

Edited December 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard tidbits for the next coins in the series for which I have hoard info:

1911: Until a substantial hoard of uncirculated examples were discovered in Europe in the early-1990's, the 1911 was thought to be scarce in MS63 condition, and MS64 quality examples were considered moderately rare at the very least. Today, though, there are many hundreds of choice and very choice mint state 1911 double eagles available to collectors.

Most 1911 double eagles apparently were shipped to Europe although it is unlikely any were shipped until after the year of manufacture. The overwhelming majority of authenticated and graded coins fall in the low to mid-uncirculated range – generally MS-63 or below. This is consistent with Heritage auction archives with nearly seventy-percent of offerings in this same range. The small quantity of high-quality coins likely came from pieces paid out by the Philadelphia Mint cashier and one or two bags that were relatively untouched after being received out-side of the United States.

1911-D: Several thousand coins from S/C America after 1972. A few bags of Uncirculated….larger amounts of Circulated.

1911-S Along with the 1909-D found in the MTB 1983 Hoard by Akers. David Bowers said in the 1970’s a Bank of America branch in Beverly Hills had 500 coins.

Review of authentication and auction archives show that of the available mintage of 757,580 pieces, approximately 450,000 were sent to Europe and 250,000 went to South America. The transfers did not occur immediately, but were made in large shipments a few years after production (RWB).

Several hoards of 1911-S double eagles are known among the repatriated coins. David Akers’ description of finding 1911-S coins in a large group purchased by MTB in 1983 echoes that for the 1909-D. In addition, Q. David Bowers relates that in the 1970s, he received a call from a trust officer at the Bank of America on North Beverly Drive in Beverly Hills, California. The “John Estate” was being sold, and investigation revealed a cache of gold coins had been hidden in a vault for decades.

Bowers visited the bank and among the coins shown to him was a sack of 500 1911-S double eagles. According to Bowers each coin was brilliant and lustrous. He purchased the coins, plus others. When these were subsequently advertised they sold out within four hours of the time the offering appeared! In his book, Bowers also refers to July 7, 1996, correspondence with gold coin authority David Akers, who indicated that he sold 500 1911-S twenties to one of his customers. This hoard was associated with approximately 47,000 double eagles discovered in Central America (reported by some to be El Salvador) in the early 1980s (the MTB/Stacks purchase).

1912: Small hoards first appeared in Europe in the late 1960's and 1970's including a group of 40 choice examples purchased by Paramount from a source in Basel, Switzerland in 1973. Twenty or so years later, a much larger hoard of uncirculated 1912 double eagles was found in Eastern Europe.

[GoldFinger1969]

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: We'll take it up to WW I with the next batch of hoards.....

1913:  Only 500 of the 5,700 survivors today did NOT come from European banks.  Beat-up coins for the most part from bag circulation among Eurobanks.  Other coins likely from C. America/El Salvador came back in the 1960’s and 1970’s.

1914-S:  Many of these MS60-65 coins trace their pedigrees to hoards that were released into the market during the 15 year period from 1970-1985.

1915-S:  Several hoards with 1,000 or more coins have entered the market since the early 1970s, so it is not surprising that the 1915-S is plentiful in lower Mint State grades through MS64.

Analysis of authentication and auction records leads to the conclusion that most of the surviving 1915-S coins came from bank accumulations in South and possibly Central America. A whopping ninety-eight percent of all pieces, or approximately 567,000 likely were shipped south during the teens and 1920s. The overall quality of surviving coins is too high for the coins to have been involved in inter-bank transactions in Europe. Further, inventory and weight information for the double eagles recovered from the Kaiseroda mine in Merkers, Germany in 1945 point to nearly all of the coins in that hoard to be less than full weight.

1916-S:  David Akers comments that several thousand 1916-S coins were dispersed from hoards that came on the market in the 1970s and 1980s.  The largest of these included more than 4,000 pieces located in El Salvador by MTB.   As was typical, the Central American coins were of higher quality than those from European sources and these pieces account for many of the best specimens available to collectors.  Authentication data imply that about 330,000 pieces were sent to Europe.

[JT2]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:15 PM, VKurtB said:

Importing and exporting is a pain in the backside. It always has been. At least if done legally.

Ummm PSST  "I know this guy"  ...............

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:15 PM, VKurtB said:

Importing and exporting is a pain in the backside. It always has been.

Yeah, George Costanza confirms this.....

[GoldFinger1969]

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date:  I had forgotten to update this thread, here's a few more comments on Saint-Gaudens Hoards....

1920-S:   Doubtful if any single date bags of uncirculated 1920-S double eagles were ever sent overseas since no large quantity or even small groups of uncirculated 1920-S Saints were ever returned to the U.S. only the occasional circulated or minimal uncirculated specimen.   Paul Wittlin, the European buyer for James Kelly and later Paramount, searched more than 20 years for rare and scarce date U S gold coins in Paris and Swiss banks.   He managed to find only the occasional single AU or uncirculated 1920-S double eagle never any quantities of uncirculated pieces and not a single one that was really nice like MS63 or better.

New research by Roger Burdette into the origin of surviving coins suggests that the less than 200 pieces believed known today likely came from two sources: a production residual of 144 coins that the San Francisco Mint Cashier paid out shortly after production, and from a group of 543 pieces that was shipped to Philadelphia for the Annual Assay Commission and was later, at least in part, paid out by the Philadelphia Mint Cashier. There is little evidence to suggest that any significant quantities of the 1920-S double eagle were ever distributed through other channels and only a few specimens of the 1920-S have turned up in European holdings over the years.

1921:  3 or 4 best in U.S. hands in 1940’s.  2^nd rarest Saint behind 1927-D and 1^st in condition rarity.   Lower MS and circulated coins only came back from European hoards and only a few per bag.

1922:  End of 1921 Depression led to boom in exports and many Saints sent overseas to Europe, S/C America…mostly MS60-64’s.  Tens of thousands of coins came back.

1922-S:  Steady stream from 1950’s through 1970’s from Europe.  From super-rare to scarce.  Large number in 1983 MTB.  The 1922-S began to appear in quantity in European banks in the 1950’s and 1960’s, and the date was well represented in the 1983 MTB Hoard. Today, the 1922-S can be found in lower Mint State grades with little difficulty; high-grade examples remain quite rare.

1923:  The 1923 Philadelphia-issue $20, like its 1922-P counterpart, was spared the mass meltings of the 1930s. This was likely because many were among large quantities of coins shipped to Germany under the Dawes Plan and which then transferred from bank-to-bank. However, among Philadelphia Mint $20s, the 1923 double eagle is the scarcest in the 1922 through 1928 range.  A typical 1923 grades MS62, which is in line with the condition of many European hoard coins. Better preserved examples are difficult to locate and anything MS65 or finer is a rarity and will attract considerable attention at auction.

Edited June 13, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date:

1923-D:  Most pieces seem to have been preserved in foreign holdings, most likely in Argentina or Brazil where it was common practice to leave U.S. gold untouched in its original bags. A small hoard of 1,000 pieces, alleged to have been owned by Virgil Brand, came to light in 1981-1982 but other groups seem to have been much more modest in size.

1924:  This issue's availability stems mainly from repatriated trade coins from Europe and South America. In 1924, about 2.5 million double eagles -- presumably mostly from current coinage -- were shipped to the New York Assay Office and the Federal Reserve Banks for use in international payments. Extensive research by Roger Burdette in this area documents heavy gold exports in 1924, and 1.8 million double eagles were shipped out quickly upon delivery to the distributors at the Federal Reserve Banks and the Assay Office.

1924-D:  Extremely rare prior to 1950’s, but several small hoards changed the scarcity rankings.  Small hoards in 1950’s-1970’s.  Since then a number of small hoards of the 1924-D were uncovered in Europe in the 1950s, 1960s and even the 1970s.

1924-S:   In the past 60 years, the 1924-S has dropped a very long way from once being considered not only the rarest issue of the Saint-Gaudens series, but also the rarest of the entire denomination, surpassing the 1856-O, 1870-CC and the famous proof-only rarities of the 1880s. It was also considered more rare than the 1907 MCMVII Extremely High Relief, the 1927-D and the 1933, all of which are multi-million dollar coins today. The prevailing opinion as late as 1950 was that only three or four specimens of this date were known and, when one sold, it invariably brought an extraordinary price. The C. David Pierce specimen in the 1947 Buffalo ANA sale, a superb gem and the finest known to this day (Simpson-Stellar-Price- "Mr. Lima, Ohio" collections), sold for a remarkable $2,200, a price realized by only a few coins during that era. (For example, John Jay Pittman bought his nearly perfect 1792 Half Dime one year later for only $100 and thought he paid too much.) A four figure price paid for a coin was anything but commonplace then. The reputation of the 1924-S as a rarity was rather short-lived, however, because beginning in the early 1950s and continuing over the next several decades, significant quantities of the 1924-S, and other formerly rare dates such as the 1922-S, 1924-D, 1925-D, 1925-S, 1926-D, 1926-S and 1929, in particular, were found overseas in French and Swiss banks. These coins were returned to the United States as they were acquired by U.S. dealers and their buyers and quickly found their way into the numismatic marketplace and eventually the hands of collectors. By 1956 uncirculated examples of the 1924-S had already dropped into the $300-$350 range and prices continued their decline further over the next 10-15 years.

Edited June 19, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

[FWIW, Following is one interesting answer to the question, How many coins constitute a hoard?

Two or more coins from the same find provided they are at least 300 years old when found and contain less than 10% gold or silver (if the coins contain less than 10% gold or silver there must be at least ten of them). Per Google.

The ANA defines hoards more liberally in the manner most collectors do without any specific references to number, age or composition.

Among the famous hoards recovered, it notes: "The WF hoard was a hoard discovered in the early 1990's that had thousands of 1908 no motto St-Gaudens double eagles in amazing condition. Ten coins were even graded MS-69. The coins in this hoard were some of the best double eagles ever found."

(Parenthetical Note: I was unaware any of these coins some members have described as being "heavy" and, being gold, "soft," had ever been graded so fine by any TPGS.) ]

Great update!  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/18/2023 at 9:01 PM, Henri Charriere said:

(Parenthetical Note: I was unaware any of these coins some members have described as being "heavy" and, being gold, "soft," had ever been graded so fine by any TPGS.) ] Great update!  

Thanks !!  It's not QUANTIFIED but the general consensus of collectors, numismatists, and dealers is that the Wells Fargo 1908 NM's are of higher-quality than the pre-WF non-hoard coins.  Luster and strike seem better on the WF Hoard. 

[Henri Charriere]

because I do not know where to post it.

Hot off the wire...

Heritage Auctions Private Offerings, this week:

1907 $20. "High/Wire" NGC PF-67. Pop: 19/5. Current price: $232,500.  (NGC price guide: $205,000.)

FIVE graded finer!

[GoldFinger1969]

Always good to see how Saint rankings in rarity have changed over time when discussing hoards:

 

Rarity Rankings, 1940's/1950's:

ULTRA-RARE….1924-S, 1926-D, 1926-S

SUPER-RARE….1921, 1927-S, 1931-D

RARE……………1925-D, 1927-D, 1930-S

SEMI-RARE……1922-S, 1929, 1931, 1932, 1920-S, 1908-S, 1924-D

 

Rarity Rankings, 1990’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1921

SUPER-RARE…….1920-S, 1931, 1932

RARE………………1931-D, 1927-S, 1926-D

SEMI-RARE………1929, 1908-S, 1925-S, 1925-D, 1909-D, 1926-S, 1924S

 

Rarity Rankings, 2020’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1932

SUPER-RARE….....1931, 1931-D, 1921 

RARE………………1920-S, 1927-S, 1929

SEMI-RARE………1926-D, 1925-D, 1926S, 1924-S, 1909-D, 1924-D, 1908-S

[RWB]

On 6/18/2023 at 1:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

more rare than the 1907 MCMVII Extremely High Relief

MCMVII EHR pieces are all patterns, not legal tender coins. Thus, it should not be on a list of coins.

 

Very interesting list. Wish there were good documentation on these. Coin seller anecdotes are notoriously unreliable.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/6/2023 at 11:38 AM, RWB said:

MCMVII EHR pieces are all patterns, not legal tender coins. Thus, it should not be on a list of coins.

Technically you are true.  I guess that the collectors of the day included that pattern alongside coins.  Plus, it was sort of the predecessor of the MCMVII High Relief so even though it definitely was a pattern it's got lineage with the High Relief and other Saints.

On 7/6/2023 at 11:38 AM, RWB said:

MCMVII EHR pieces are all patterns, not legal tender coins. Thus, it should not be on a list of coins.  Very interesting list. Wish there were good documentation on these. Coin seller anecdotes are notoriously unreliable.

From David Akers, probably based on his auction record work (published in books) as well as commentary from his deep contacts in the industry (i.e., Paramount).  The most noticeable thing, aside from the changing rankings over time, was how "stable" the place of the 1921 Saint is over time.  It's changed the least among the coins over 75-80 years, a point he made in numerous HA commentaries.

Edited July 6, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Here's the complete condition rarity commentary Akers had on the 1921:

"...The standing of the 1921 in the overall hierarchy of Saint-Gaudens double eagle rarities has changed less over the last seven decades than any other regular issue in the series. During that time, some issues have dropped precipitously from their place at the top (1924-S and 1926-S for example) and others have risen substantially (1920-S, 1930-S and especially 1927-D) but the 1921 has always been recognized as being among the top four rarities of the series, both 70 years ago and today, at least with respect to value. The only thing that has changed is the other three coins with it at the top. The 1921 is now considered to be the second most valuable regular issue Saint-Gaudens double eagle, surpassed only by the 1927-D whose extreme rarity was not recognized fully until the 1950s, at least in comparison to other issues in the series.

Judged solely on its population rarity, meaning the total number of specimens known in all grades, the 1921 is certainly rare, but not exceptionally so, comparable overall to the 1920-S, but actually less rare than the 1930-S and 1932. However, as a condition rarity it is the unrivaled "Queen" of the Saint-Gaudens series because the condition at which it becomes extremely rare and valuable is lower than for any other issue. Of course, every Saint is a condition rarity at a certain level. For example, any issue is (or would be if one existed) a great rarity in MS68 or 69. For some issues MS67 is the rarity point, for others it is MS65 or MS66. But no issue, not even the 1927-D, is as difficult to locate in MS64 or higher grades as the 1921. Only four or possibly five specimens are known in the MS65 and MS66 grades combined with nothing finer. Even in the MS63 and 64 grades, the 1921 is a major rarity with no more than 12-15 examples known of those two grades combined."

[RWB]

On 7/6/2023 at 2:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I guess that the collectors of the day included that pattern alongside coins.  Plus, it was sort of the predecessor of the MCMVII High Relief so even though it definitely was a pattern it's got lineage with the High Relief and other Saints.

In reality, many collectors likely asked the tooth fairy for one, but it took TR's order to make one available for Augusta Saint-Gaudens. It was not actually the predecessor to HR MCMVII or any coin. The MCMVII HR came from a second pair of models, of somewhat different design and relief. None of the pattern pieces made were preserved, so the MCMVII HR are the only progeny. (That is -- the EHR MCMVII was a dead end design.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:04 PM, RWB said:

In reality, many collectors likely asked the tooth fairy for one, but it took TR's order to make one available for Augusta Saint-Gaudens. It was not actually the predecessor to HR MCMVII or any coin. The MCMVII HR came from a second pair of models, of somewhat different design and relief. None of the pattern pieces made were preserved, so the MCMVII HR are the only progeny. (That is -- the EHR MCMVII was a dead end design.)

In retrospect, I'm surprised Barber managed to get 8 of them (?) and more people didn't ask for one.  Maybe it wasn't that well-publicized as with the MCMVII HR. 

That surely was telegraphed, as the price soared to $35 a few weeks after release.   Clearly, lots of people who weren't coin collectors wanted one.  I wonder if the demand was also because of ASG, who was known as our top sculptor and the upper crust of society probably knew him from his previous works like those in NYC, artwork, museums, etc.

Edited July 6, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

You'll have to check the SG book for the number of patterns. I forget....

MCMVII HR were widely publicized and quickly brought a premium of $10 to $22. That's why none of them initially reached circulation - Treasury and Sub-Treasury clerks gobbled them up and resold for a nice profit. The bubble soon burst and $22 was about all that could be gotten.