Original time capsule box possibly found - in Lee statue base in Richmond, VA 1 1

[RWB]

"An 1875 almanac, books and a coin were discovered in time capsule found in the pedestal of Robert E. Lee statue."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/22/us/virginia-lee-time-capsule-open-trnd/index.html

Based on contents, box material, and location this does not appear to match the description in 1887 articles concerning the base. As of the evening of the 22nd, the entire base had been removed and nothing further was located. It is possible the original box was removed and the one found is a replacement, or that the one described in newspapers was "what was planned" and not what was actually used. The Lee statue did not get placed on the pedestal until 1890, if I read previous articles correctly.

The pedestal cornerstone was laid October 27, 1886.

Edited December 28, 2021 by RWB

[Alex in PA.]

Was reading about this ATS and it appears to be a disappointment.  Maybe it's somewhere else?

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/23/2021 at 2:40 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Was reading about this ATS and it appears to be a disappointment.  Maybe it's somewhere else?

More of a mystery; and mysteries can be solved.

[zadok]

...hmmmm no mention of the associated curse.....

[Zebo]

I haven’t read the article, but did see the video of the opening of the box. One coin, looked like a dollar possibly was stuck on one of the books. The photograph in the envelope was being carefully scraped to see what the image was - yet to be seen. The writing on the back of the photograph was the name, James Netherwood, a local store mason. Netherwood has a large pedestal type grave monument, which he is buried under, in a local Richmond cemetery there. It will be interesting to see a list of contents once it is released.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Zebo

[Zebo]

Netherwood was born in England. Someone suggested the coin might be a shilling or a confederate half. The images are blurry and I cannot tell. My guess would be an 1887 dollar, but I may be way off. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/24/2021 at 7:27 AM, Zebo said:

Netherwood was born in England. Someone suggested the coin might be a shilling or a confederate half. The images are blurry and I cannot tell. My guess would be an 1887 dollar, but I may be way off.

Several reports have it as a British silver coin, no specifics about the type. I would have gone with an 1887 dollar as well, guess we'll see. 

[Zebo]

On 12/24/2021 at 8:41 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Several reports have it as a British silver coin, no specifics about the type. I would have gone with an 1887 dollar as well, guess we'll see. 

A closer, blurred, look with my beer glasses on - makes me a bit less likely to call it a dollar. A Shilling or Crown, maybe - but then the blurred image doesn’t really look like that either. Maybe an 1834 - year of Netherwood birth. He had an ego - just look at his monument of himself. 

[RWB]

Interesting thoughts. I have not located the "original" newspaper material that mention a copper box or its contents. Corner stone "time capsules" were extremely common in that era. Mint archives have many letters from individuals and banks asking for new or proof coins for use in corner stones. I recall (?) that the Masonic Orders had suggestion for the content as well as the laying ceremony.

[Zebo]

On 12/24/2021 at 12:58 PM, RWB said:

Interesting thoughts. I have not located the "original" newspaper material that mention a copper box or its contents. Corner stone "time capsules" were extremely common in that era. Mint archives have many letters from individuals and banks asking for new or proof coins for use in corner stones. I recall (?) that the Masonic Orders had suggestion for the content as well as the laying ceremony.

Ive looked a bit at the Richmond Dispatch archives for 1887. No luck yet.

[RWB]

I checked "Newspapers.com" and the Library of Congress newspaper files.

[Zebo]

On 12/24/2021 at 4:13 PM, RWB said:

I checked "Newspapers.com" and the Library of Congress newspaper files.

Here you go Roger:

[RWB]

Super! Found it:

Richmond Dispatch

Richmond, Virginia

26 Oct 1887, Wed  •  Page 1 

This was around a year after work began on the pedestal - Oct 25, 1886 - so the box was not really in the structural cornerstone, but likely a ceremonial one placed in the base above the pedestal....Nope- more like a gap left for the stone in the pedestal....

Edited December 25, 2021 by RWB

[RWB]

Here's a transcription of the reported contents and a note about the box' location. (I did some minor editing to make reading the list easier.) A gap in the base seems to have been left for the corner stone, and the stone then slipped into place at the ceremony of October 27, 1887. Note that there are a few coins mentioned, but nothing especially interesting. It's odd that no request was made for a set of 1887 proof coins. It also seems strange to me that the contents is such a jumble of "stuff" with little organization or relation to Gen. Lee -- as if locals simply provided personal mementos or even personal calling cards -- kind of like "I was there."

Corner-Stone Contributions.

List of Articles Placed in the Copper Box.

The following articles were received by Mr. W. B. Isaacs, and have been placed in the copper box which will be inserted in the Lee-monument corner-stone:

From George D. Fisher – compiled history of the Monumental church.

T.A. Brander – Roll of Company B. Twelfth Virginia infantry.

J. B. Halyburton – statistics of the city of Richmond.

P.J. White – constitution and by-laws of Lee Camp, Confederate Veterans, and programme of banquet to Lynn Post No. 5.

Cyrus Bossieaux – Virginia Confederate Buttons.

J. W. Tailey – battle-flag; and square and compass made from the tree over Stonewall Jackson’s grave.

Charles E. and Waler B. Harwood – twelve copper coins.

George T. Mattern – muster-roll of Richmond Sharpshooters, Twenty-first Virginia regiment.

Carlton McCarthy – badge of the Association of Army [of] Northern Virginia.

Saks & Co. – circular advertisement.

M. Staples & Co. – copy of Emigrants’ Friend.

Mrs. H. A. Marshall – genealogical tree of the Lee family.

F. W. Jones – Confederate treasury notes.

John F. Mayer – copy of seal of the Adjutant-General of the Confederate States; photograph-copy of Confederate cent; and a $100,000 Confederate bond, registered.

Master Nolting – $1 Confederate note.

W. T. Moseley – English penny of 1812.

J. H. Capers – roll of officers and members of Richmond Commandery No. 2; individual card of Edward W. Price, general commander, New Jersey; programme of the Ancient Order of Nobles of the Mystic Shrine on the occasion of the laying of the corner-stone.

George A. Ainalei – reports of the Chamber of Commerce for 1886 and 1887; constitution and by-laws of the Virginia Mechanics’ Institute; and by-laws of Richmond Commandry No. 2.

James E. Goode – Warrock-Richardson Virginia Almanac for 1887.

J. W. Randolph & English – Soldiers’ Life Army of Northern Virginia (by McCarthy); Memorial Volume of the Army of Northern Virginia; a guide to Richmond with maps of Richmond and Virginia; badge corner-stone parade; History of the First Battle of Manassas; Grantham’s Historical Account of Some Memorable Actions in Virginia, 1716. [sic 1882 reprint].

Emma R. Ball – report Mount Vernon Ladies’ Association, 1887.

Miss Pattie Leake – picture of Lincoln lying in his coffin.

W. H. sands – programme Ancient Order Nobles of Mystic Shrine laying corner-stone of Lee monument.

James Alfred Jones – Weekly Dispatch October 21, 1887 containing letter of Hon. W.W. Coreoran of General Lee.

Miss Nettie Lee Brown – W. Gordon McCabe’s address at the reunion of Pegram’s battalion, picture of memorial window of Pegram’s battalion at Soldier’s Home; Gray and Blue badge.

Master Frank Brown – piece of a stone wall, Fredericksburg, Va.; three bullets from battlefield of Fredericksburg, one piece of shell from Fredericksburg, one piece of wood with Minnie-ball in it from battle-field of Fredericksburg; and a cut from a tree at the Bloody Angle, Spotsylvania.

Henry H. Turner – individual card.

C. S. De Villiers – programme of three exhibitions by Bremond Institute for benefit of Lee monument fund; a button from coat of Captain Bremond.

Blaie Meanley – individual card.

William B. Isaacs – assortment of United States silver and copper coins; Richmond Directory.

Carlton McCarthy – one United States silver dollar, 1886.

Richmond Times – copy of paper of 23 October, 1887.

J. Thompson Brown – assortment of United States fractional coins.

Thomas J. Starke – one Holy Bible.

W. B. Isaacs – copies of charters issued by Grand Lodge, Grand Chapter, and Grand Commanders of Virginia to its subordinates (on parchment).

Grand Lodge of Virginia – fourth edition of Grand Lodge Text-Book; copy of Text-Book Grand Chapter of Virginia and Digest copy Grand Constitution of Grand Encampment United States Knights Templars and proceedings 1886.

Copy of Proceedings – 1886, Grand Lodge, Grand Chapter, and Grand Commandry of Virginia.

Programme of exercises observed on occasion of laying of Lee-monument corner-stone.

Reprints of proceedings of Grand Lodge of Virginia from 1877 to 1822 [sic 1882], containing steel engravings of all grand masters during that period, and also engravings of Dr. John Dove and Hon. R. E. Withers.

            The box containing the articles to be placed in the corner-stone was sealed at 2:30 o’clock yesterday.

The corner-stone was taken to the site of the monument yesterday about 1 o’clock.

[Richmond Dispatch (Richmond, Virginia), October 26, 1887, p1.]

An article in the Washington Evening Star October 27, 1887, p.4 states:

“The corner stone is about 4 feet across and 2 feet deep, and the cap that covers it is about 1-1/2 feet deep. It will, when put in pace, be about 2 feet above ground.”

Edited December 25, 2021 by RWB

[Zebo]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:49 PM, RWB said:

Here's a transcription of the reported contents and a note about the box' location. (I did some minor editing to make reading the list easier.) A gap in the base seems to have been left for the corner stone, and the stone then slipped into place at the ceremony of October 27, 1887. Note that there are a few coins mentioned, but nothing especially interesting. It's odd that no request was made for a set of 1887 proof coins. It also seems strange to me that the contents is such a jumble of "stuff" with little organization or relation to Gen. Lee -- as if locals simply provided personal mementos or even personal calling cards -- kind of like "I was there."

 

[RWB]

The Washington Star description and Masonic Rites would have located the cornerstone at the northeast corner of the monument. This coincides with the pyramidal capstones (arrows) shown in this 1890 photo taken just after dedication.

Press reports from several months ago indicate these areas were examined and nothing was found. All of the monument has been removed, examined and nothing found. Since installation of the cornerstone was witnessed by thousands of spectators in October 1887, it appears that the original was removed and replaced with a solid block. The stone was, in this case, merely a ceremonial item and not structural, it seems unlikely that the original was damaged. So, it must have been quietly removed and replaced after the 1887 ceremony with the copper box stored at some unknown location.

Edited December 25, 2021 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

What a shame!  Not even 150 years later and all is gone.

The two time capsules buried at both the 1939 and 1964 New York World's Fair, courtesy Westinghouse, were meant to last 5,000 years.  To my knowledge, neither has been tampered with. No one alive now will get to see their unveiling, which is just as well, as their contents, or so people thought at the time, were nothing less than embarrassing.  By comparison, the dig conducted at King Tut's tomb was far more interesting.

[RWB]

I wonder if any historical group or college (Washington & Lee ?) received some or all of the listed contents between 1887 and 1890? The photo of a "Confederate cent" might be a marker for such a donation.

Also, contemporary reports state that the cornerstone laying was cut short due to rain, and that very few non-whites were to be seen in the large crowd and none in the parade. Was the copper box damaged during the Masonic ceremony....?

As of today, 12-27-2021 the following is reported:

"Devon Henry, the contractor whose company was overseeing the removal, said the box was found inside a granite enclosure basically at ground level, surrounded by fill and other construction material. Workers pulled off the top of the granite enclosure to find the box, which appeared to be made of copper, sitting in water, Henry said."

From CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/27/us/virginia-lee-second-time-capsule-open-trnd/index.html

Edited December 28, 2021 by RWB

[Just Bob]

I despise the CNN site because of all of the clickbait, so I hope I can find another news site that reports on the box opening tomorrow.

[Zebo]

On 12/27/2021 at 7:03 PM, RWB said:

I wonder if any historical group or college (Washington & Lee ?) received some or all of the listed contents between 1887 and 1890? The photo of a "Confederate cent" might be a marker for such a donation.

Also, contemporary reports state that the cornerstone laying was cut short due to rain, and that very few non-whites were to be seen in the large crowd and none in the parade. Was the copper box damaged during the Masonic ceremony....?

As of today, 12-27-2021 the following is reported:

"Devon Henry, the contractor whose company was overseeing the removal, said the box was found inside a granite enclosure basically at ground level, surrounded by fill and other construction material. Workers pulled off the top of the granite enclosure to find the box, which appeared to be made of copper, sitting in water, Henry said."

From CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/27/us/virginia-lee-second-time-capsule-open-trnd/index.html

Did you know that Washington & Lee wanted to drop Lee off it’s name, but the alumni made them keep it? Money talks!

[RWB]

On 12/28/2021 at 1:48 AM, Zebo said:

Did you know that Washington & Lee wanted to drop Lee off it’s name, but the alumni made them keep it? Money talks!

Yes, it does. Personally, I have no objection to the Lee family name being attached to the university. The object is not to erase Robert E. Lee from history -- as the Soviets and Trumpers do -- but to remove the idols of admiration for slavery and its supporters. When Virginia's legislature voted to secede, Gen. Lee chose to abrogate his oath of allegiance to the United States of America, thereby supporting a single state over the national constitution and identifying himself as a traitor. The post-war approach was to welcome back all who would repeat their original oath of allegiance, which Gen. Lee did, and thus absolve their previous actions. Lee was respected in north and south for his character and it was for this, that Washington College chose him to be its President. The college name was changed after Lee's death.

[Zebo]

On 12/28/2021 at 9:24 AM, RWB said:

Yes, it does. Personally, I have no objection to the Lee family name being attached to the university. The object is not to erase Robert E. Lee from history -- as the Soviets and Trumpers do -- but to remove the idols of admiration for slavery and its supporters. When Virginia's legislature voted to secede, Gen. Lee chose to abrogate his oath of allegiance to the United States of America, thereby supporting a single state over the national constitution and identifying himself as a traitor. The post-war approach was to welcome back all who would repeat their original oath of allegiance, which Gen. Lee did, and thus absolve their previous actions. Lee was respected in north and south for his character and it was for this, that Washington College chose him to be its President. The college name was changed after Lee's death.

It’s a long and interesting history. 
 

the copper box was found. I’m halfway through the video. Fascinating even though we knew what it contained.

[RWB]

On 12/28/2021 at 6:41 PM, Zebo said:

It’s a long and interesting history. 
 

the copper box was found. I’m halfway through the video. Fascinating even though we knew what it contained.

Yes, it is. Everything was wet, and we knew there was nothing of historical interest (except the photo which was just a newspaper clipping), but it was great to watch the staff remove and inspect things and then explain what was going to be done next. The only focus I could find for the contents was to demonstrate that Virginia, and Richmond City, had rebounded from the war and had an active commercial and fraternal organization life. ( Had originally expected much mroe focus on Lee and his life and accomplishments.)

[Henri Charriere]

Interesting how you will accept, without question or objection, the formal extrication of an old copper box from an old monument, but unseal and disgorge the contents of an apparently authentic U.S. mint bag date-stamped with official tags, with never-before-seen, Mint-fresh, Mint State 90% silver Kennedy halves -- under the steady gaze of a camera with narration accompaniment by an eyewitness... and you reject outright its claim of intact, established provenance.  If the latter had been transported by armed guards and opened i/f/o of a captive audience of hundreds, at a public venue, would you have acquiesced to apparent lawful authority, and said, Okay, I'll allow it?

[Mohawk]

On 12/28/2021 at 12:35 AM, Just Bob said:

I despise the CNN site because of all of the clickbait, so I hope I can find another news site that reports on the box opening tomorrow.

Here's some coverage of this on CBS News, Bob.  Seems to be less click bait on their page and they're definitely a reputable news source.  

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/antique-photo-money-newspaper-time-capsule-robert-e-lee-statue/

I hope that's of some help, my friend.

I hear you on the click bait though.  It's annoying.  I honestly tend not to bother with many U.S. news outlets any more in favor of Canadian and British news outlets.  There's still some click bait with some of them, but a lot of them have a lot less than many U.S. based news sites, in my experience.

~Tom