Destructive Assays on coins 1 1

[l.quintero]

Hello dear numismatic friends. Hope you'll are doing great.

 

I open this thread because I would like to ask if anyone that have experience in the minting process know about the destructive assays that they do on ready to circulate coins. I bought a lot of coins a couple of months ago to some ex-employees of the Venezuelan mint and they told me that the coins displayed in the pictures are destructive assays that they do inside the mint to the coins to test its strength and durability.

 

I bring a couple of questions to your attention: 

• Does anyone own more of this kind of assays? Doesn't matter its country of provenance.
• Does someone have a deeper knowledge about this kind of processes done inside the minting facilities?

 

I understand the kind of proofs that they put the metal into, bending, heat or pressure, but are there more of them? 

 

And a final question, will NGC certify this kind of coins and give them the right label?

 

 

To all the people that will interact with us in this post, thanks in advanced.

 

Best regards,

Luis.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Those are some interesting coins and planchets, the only thing I've seen similar is mint canceled coins. Specifically SBA's. As far as authentication your going to need some already existing references to fall back on and possibly additional proof from the mint where they were produced, unless these are already known and accepted. My guess is that without the proper documentation most of these would be labeled as damaged.

[RWB]

They are not "assays" - an assay is performed to determine the composition: "what it's made of."

These are common mechanical tests routinely made by mints to ensure the coins meet specifications for durability and surface attributes. Other tests are made to determine if low value coins can be made to operate vending machines by adding metal or altering the physical configuration. Unless there is clear documentation, these are merely curiosities since the same results could be easily obtained in someone's basement workshop.

[Conder101]

The first coin appears to be a "waffled" coin for cancellation, the others just appear to be mutilated.  The rings may be blanks and/or planchets for bimetalic pieces.

[DWLange]

Quote

The first coin appears to be a "waffled" coin for cancellation

Now I have an urge to go the Waffle House. There's one right nearby where a coin dealer was robbed about ten years ago while returning from the FUN show.

[RWB]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:16 AM, DWLange said:

Now I have an urge to go the Waffle House. There's one right nearby where a coin dealer was robbed about ten years ago while returning from the FUN show.

Did they catch the guy who robbed the Waffle House? Did they also get their stock of blueberry pancakes and Western omelets?

[l.quintero]

On 11/30/2021 at 9:47 PM, RWB said:

They are not "assays" - an assay is performed to determine the composition: "what it's made of."

Thanks for the correction RWB, appreciate it. In Spanish we say that those "tests" are called "ensayos" that translate to "assays", I'm sorry. Do you know a little bit more about those tests, like what kind of stresses they put the blanks into.

 

On 11/30/2021 at 5:14 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

the only thing I've seen similar is mint canceled coins. Specifically SBA's.

Thanks for this Mike, I don't know too much about American coins, so it's really interesting and actually they look quite similar.

 

On 12/1/2021 at 9:16 AM, DWLange said:

Now I have an urge to go the Waffle House. There's one right nearby where a coin dealer was robbed about ten years ago while returning from the FUN show.

 

 

 

About the certification, I already asked the people of the mint for any kind of paperwork where they state the purpose of this tests, but I don't think they will give me any sincerely, for how the things are going over there, hopefully I'll unlock this incognita for us!

[RWB]

On 12/1/2021 at 11:41 PM, l.quintero said:

Do you know a little bit more about those tests, like what kind of stresses they put the blanks into.

Your best option is to search for "mechanical testing" or "metallurgical assessment" on the internet. Not sure how these would be expressed in Spanish. A int simply wants to be sure they are getting the metal alloy or composite layer they are buying from contractors, and that the coins meet their physical specifications. These tests include abrasion, bending, heating, environmental response (such as salt water), malleability, crystal structure, pressure deformation, cracking and so forth.

As for documents supporting test pieces as mint products, they are the only thing that can separate "mint product" from "garage workshop" or damage.

[VKurtB]

Next February in London, the Trial of the Pyx will happen again. It includes both compositional test for precious metal coins, and physical tests for all coins, precious metal or not. 

[Oldhoopster]

Having spent a lot of time in Quality Assurance labs working with incoming materials, I strongly believe they are destructive  test samples from incoming lots, as @RWBhas said.  Usually these are discarded/scrapped per company procedures. 

It's not surprising you didn't get anything from the mint because there is a good chance they weren't supposed to be removed.  I feel you have what you claim, it just may be hard to get the documentation to confirm it.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/2/2021 at 2:51 PM, VKurtB said:

Next February in London, the Trial of the Pyx will happen again. It includes both compositional test for precious metal coins, and physical tests for all coins, precious metal or not. 

What enquiring minds want to know is when was the last time a guilty verdict was rendered?  

[RWB]

On 12/3/2021 at 1:35 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

What enquiring minds want to know is when was the last time a guilty verdict was rendered?  

Long ago it was called "The Trial of the Nose Pyx" but was shortened under the demand of King George III who had long fingernails.

Edited December 3, 2021 by RWB

[RWB]

The Royal Mint says:

The Trial of the Pyx affects everything we do at The Royal Mint. For more than 700 years, every coin we've produced has been subjected to a rigorous trial steeped in tradition and ceremony. However, the Trial is more than just show. Overseen by the Queen's Remembrancer of the Royal Courts of Justice, it is one of the longest established judicial practices in the country.

The Trial gets its name from the Pyx boxes in which the coins are transported. The boxes, in turn, get their name from the Pyx Chamber in Westminster Abbey. For a number of centuries, boxes of coins set aside to be tested were stored here. There is also evidence that at least some of the testing itself took place in the chamber. A stone table in the room is now often confused for an altar but was actually used for testing silver.

These days, Pyx boxes are stored at The Royal Mint, which prides itself on being one of the most secure sites in the United Kingdom. Just like the boxes of centuries past, modern Pyx boxes are made of wood.

"We have a stock of wooden boxes to ensure we have enough capacity to cover all required samples," explains Gwyn Roberts, Quality Systems Manager at The Royal Mint. "Each box has its own lock, with only the Quality department having access to the keys."

The keys themselves are kept in a secure and alarmed room to which only a handful of individuals have access.

Members of the Quality department ensure that random samples are pulled from each batch of coins produced, be they commemorative, circulating or precious metal bullion coins. Exactly how many samples are pulled depends somewhat on the coin in question and the metal being used. For bimetallic coins made of cupro-nickel and nickel-brass, one sample coin is pulled for every 10,000 pieces that are manufactured. For cupro-nickel pieces, one sample is pulled for every 20,000 coins produced. For gold coins, it's one sample for every 10,000 pieces; for silver coins, we take one sample for every 15,000 pieces manufactured.

Of course, The Royal Mint produces a lot of coins –  more than 3.3 billion coins and blanks for distribution around the world – so those single samples add up quickly. This year, for example, The Royal Mint will be transporting more than 16,000 coins to the Trial. Demand for the striking of coins – circulating coins in particular – can vary considerably from year to year. It's not unheard of for The Royal Mint to find itself hauling as many as 50,000 coins to Goldsmiths’ Hall, where the Trial has been held since 1871.

A certain number of those coins will be assayed to confirm that their metal content meets each specification. Some of those coins subjected to so-called ‘destructive testing’ will be melted down and their metals re-used in future coins. The bulk of the coins, those that have been handled by jurors, will return to The Royal Mint's vaults and be catalogued. It is from this group of coins that The Royal Mint offers collectors and enthusiasts the chance to own a piece of history.

The various coins that have been subjected to the rigorous standards of the Trial of the Pyx are unique in that each will have been handled differently. Some may have smudges from jurors' fingers, some may have minor scratches – each little imperfection, however, helps write the coin's place in history. It is a coin that has played a role in the centuries-old tradition of quality that serves as the bedrock of The Royal Mint's mission.

You can connect with that history by browsing the Trial of the Pyx range at royalmint.com/our-coins/events/trial-of-the-pyx. Keep in mind that many of the coins are offered in relatively low numbers. In some cases, only one example may be available. As such, the coins tend to sell out very quickly.

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 12/3/2021 at 1:00 PM, RWB said:

Long ago it was called "The Trial of the Nose Pyx" but was shortened under the demand of King George III who had long fingernails.

…and have you SEEN some of the schnozzes on some of those monarchs? Young William is well positioned.