ANA removes "Zerbe" name from its highest award. 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2021 at 8:37 PM, VKurtB said:

IDK about the successor to the Zerbe Award, but I do know that virtually ALL ANA awards do have long term sponsors. Even the individual Class exhibiting awards are endowed. Class 4, the Class for modern coin exhibits, is endowed by the Red Rose Coin Club, and named for John Eshbach. 

If the minimal amount required for exhibiting individual classes is reasonable, the Treasury ought to clear up that logjam with a simple memo directing Mint Diplomats to simply clear out their voluninous stacks of the newer two-dollar bills most federally-insured banks must have on hand though the last time someone asked for one, a Series 1963, was in 1984 by me.

Now what's this I hear about Penicillinase producing Neisseria gonorrhea or PPNG? I never got an award, just a CIA-like business card hand-printed with a name and phone number. No message. Nothing.  How do you know you've contacted it?  You don't, but a persistent burning drip suggests it might be a good idea, and more so when they stick that long thin aluminun cotton swab deep up inside you and you're sitting there wondering, "But wasn't I just treated here yesterdag.??? I'd rather have rabies.

What's that?...  PPIE?  Ohhh, that changes everything!

Never mind.    

Edited October 22, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
(No.moniter

[MarkFeld]

On 10/20/2021 at 8:58 PM, VKurtB said:

Pretty close. This is an old story. It’s been around since the ANA Rosemont show. The LAST Zerbe ever goes to a personal friend, Kerry Wetterstrom. The cruel irony is that his home club, Red Rose of Lancaster, PA is atrophying at an alarming rate. Too many takers, not enough doers.
 

The ANA is out of the gold Zerbe medals (only 10k gold - like a class ring). I know this from the disposition of the estate of the OTHER Red Rose Coin Club member to win it, the man who mentored me on exhibits, the late great John Eshbach, a fellow Franklin & Marshall man. It is time to order more, so this was the time to do this if changes were to be made. This hobby is a hot mess. I seriously doubt there is ANYONE who could be found who is dead now, who has an overwhelmingly positive reputation, and who would not be controversial to others. In fact, the only name that occurs to me for now is John Eshbach. If it can be held “nameless” temporarily, it should be named for Q. David Bowers when he passes. It is a service award, and no one I know has CONTRIBUTED more to the field than Bowers.

This is quite honestly a pretty shady field, with an amazing number of serious creeps and crooks.

It’s not a matter of whether Roger’s views are “pretty close”, way off or spot-on. The point is that he made it sound as if the notice included specific language, which was not present.

[MarkFeld]

On 10/21/2021 at 9:06 AM, RWB said:

Read the original notice before complaining. Apology accepted, Mark.

See my above post. You were either lazy - which I doubt - intentionally misleading or irresponsible in doing so. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by MarkFeld

[RWB]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:25 AM, MarkFeld said:

See my above post. You were either lazy - which I doubt - intentionally misleading or irresponsible in doing so. 

 

On 10/22/2021 at 6:22 AM, MarkFeld said:

It’s not a matter of whether Roger’s views are “pretty close”, way off or spot-on. The point is that he made it sound as if the notice included specific language, which was not present.

Mark,

All of the terms you complain about are in the ANA article, and more strongly worded than my post. There was nothing misleading or irresponsible in my post. It is your false accusation that is clearly irresponsible and misleading, and now you are trying to wheedle out of getting caught. The original post provided the source of the information, but you did not bother to read the ANA article until after I posted a copy.

I admit to having a low opinion of Zerbe. That was developed over a period of several years during which his name kept coming up in negative reports from various Mint and Treasury officials covering several decades. But, I had nothing to do with ANA Board's decision and was not aware of it until my issue of The Numismatist arrived. It was, however, a pleasure to see the Board take positive action. Maybe they can eventually do the same for counterfeiters.

Edited October 22, 2021 by RWB
Fix Formatting - as usual

[MarkFeld]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:04 AM, RWB said:

 

Mark,

All of the terms you complain about are in the ANA article, and more strongly worded than my post. There was nothing misleading or irresponsible in my post. It is your false accusation that is clearly irresponsible and misleading, and now you are trying to wheedle out of getting caught. The original post provided the source of the information, but you did not bother to read the ANA article before making your accusation.

I read the article, which mentioned complaints and those terms. It did not state that he WAS a “huckster, fraud, and briber”. No matter what you, I or anyone else thinks of him, noting complaints, as the article did, is not the same thing as making a declaration of fact.The difference between the two can have legal ramifications. 
You could have quoted the article instead of stating what you did. But that’s not your way - you seem to be quite consistent in presenting your opinions as facts. But I’ll stop beating that dead horse as frequently as I have been.😉

Edited October 22, 2021 by MarkFeld

[MarkFeld]

I freely admit that in my initial post to this thread, my presumption (copied below) was incorrect.
“As written, you make it sound as if the notice included references to “huckster, fraud, and briber” and I presume that wasn’t the case,”

Instead, I should have posted “As written, you make it sound as if the notice stated that Zerbe was a huckster, fraud, and briber” and I presume that wasn’t the case.”

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:04 AM, RWB said:

 

Mark,

All of the terms you complain about are in the ANA article, and more strongly worded than my post. There was nothing misleading or irresponsible in my post. It is your false accusation that is clearly irresponsible and misleading, and now you are trying to wheedle out of getting caught. The original post provided the source of the information, but you did not bother to read the ANA article until after I posted a copy.

I admit to having a low opinion of Zerbe. That was developed over a period of several years during which his name kept coming up in negative reports from various Mint and Treasury officials covering several decades. But, I had nothing to do with ANA Board's decision and was not aware of it until my issue of The Numismatist arrived. It was, however, a pleasure to see the Board take positive action. Maybe they can eventually do the same for counterfeiters.

Let’s let Roger have this rare moment of agreement with a Board action. Broken clock issue. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:22 AM, MarkFeld said:

I read the article, which mentioned complaints and those terms. It did not state that he WAS a “huckster, fraud, and briber”. No matter what you, I or anyone else thinks of him, noting complaints, as the article did, is not the same thing as making a declaration of fact.The difference between the two can have legal ramifications. 
You could have quoted the article instead of stating what you did. But that’s not your way - you seem to be quite consistent in presenting your opinions as facts. But I’ll stop beating that dead horse as frequently as I have been.😉

Sometimes some people’s dead horses DESERVE to be beaten into skeletal remains and a red schmutz. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:17 AM, MarkFeld said:

I freely admit that in my initial post to this thread, my presumption (copied below) was incorrect.
“As written, you make it sound as if the notice included references to “huckster, fraud, and briber” and I presume that wasn’t the case,”

Instead, I should have posted “As written, you make it sound as if the notice stated that Zerbe was a huckster, fraud, and briber” and I presume that wasn’t the case.”

Mark, what the ANA put in the release was sanitized PC language. The privately spoken opinions behind it put Roger’s to shame. They also could apply to many figures in this field. But standards do change. We need to remind ourselves that what used to be considered “okay” in the past frequently makes one shameful under modern standards. And vice versa too. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

On 10/22/2021 at 10:20 AM, VKurtB said:

Mark, what the ANA put in the release was sanitized PC language. The privately spoken opinions behind it put Roger’s to shame. They also could apply to many figures in this field. But standards do change. We need to remind ourselves that what used to be considered “okay” in the past frequently makes one shameful under modern standards. And vice versa too. 

I get that about the release. I still feel that the appropriate action would have been to quote it, rather than modify the language in a post.

And I agree about modern standards being different. I also have no doubt that in the future, some of our present standards will be subject to criticism, as I think they should. 

[RWB]

Why not simply admit the pejorative terms in my original post were identical to those in the ANA article, and then move on to something that does not appear more like a personal vendetta?

You are one of the hobby/business top people in many distinctions, so support those rather than beating a non-issue into mush.

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2021 at 12:14 PM, RWB said:

Why not simply admit the pejorative terms in my original post were identical to those in the ANA article, and then move on to something that does not appear more like a personal vendetta?

You are one of the hobby/business top people in many distinctions, so support those rather than beating a non-issue into mush.

I do think Roger’s choice of words and tone overstated the ANA’s chosen language, but he really NAILED the true sentiment behind it. I haven’t heard somebody talk down a past ANA guy so badly since Breen. I don’t really care much for revisionist history. People and organizations need to “own” their pasts and stop erasing or canceling them. US 11 through Virginia is STILL the Robert E Lee highway. Want to choose a new honoree? Fine, do it. But spare me the “purification” BS. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by VKurtB

[RWB]

Whatever the minor disagreements, it was appropriate to ANA to take action. Maybe a generic title of award is best - that's for the Board of Directors to decide. My hope is that it will be used to improve the stature and relevance of the organization, and begin to rebuild ANA's value potential.

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2021 at 4:47 PM, RWB said:

Whatever the minor disagreements, it was appropriate to ANA to take action. Maybe a generic title of award is best - that's for the Board of Directors to decide. My hope is that it will be used to improve the stature and relevance of the organization, and begin to rebuild ANA's value potential.

25,000+ think its value potential and/or current value is just fine. As a Life Member, my views on the matter are clear. 
 

But then again I am NOT one of those who expect the ANA to do things it may not legally do. Your views to the contrary are as noted as they are irrelevant. They pay legal counsel to advise them. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by VKurtB

[RWB]

There's Ashbrook, who got the Federal Charter through Congress, Henderson and the group from Ohio. In the 70s-80s there were Hancoqk, Gould and others who started coin authentication, exposed blatant counterfeiting, started independent grading, wrote an independent grading guide, etc. etc. These were significant changes in both hobby and business of numismatics - now are assumed by even the feeblest novice dealer.

Edited October 23, 2021 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:03 PM, RWB said:

There's Ashbrook, who got the Federal Charter through Congress, Henderson and the group from Ohio. In the 70s-80s there were Hancoqk, Gould and others who started coin authentication, exposed blatant counterfeiting, started independent grading, wrote an independent grading guide, etc. etc. These were significant changes in both hobby and business of numismatics - now are assumed by even the feeblest novice dealer.

“Feeblest novice dealer”. Not a small set at all. Thousands and thousands of ‘em. Anyone who spends a few months paying attention here knows more than most dealers. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/20/2021 at 2:03 PM, RWB said:

A notice published in the October Numismatist states that at a January 19, 2021 meeting of the ANA Board, the name of huckster, fraud, and briber Farran Zerbe was (at last !) removed from the association's highest honor. We can only hope that the ANA Board will attach the name of some truly distinguished and honorable deceased member to future editions. [See Numismatist, October 2021, page 67.]

Yours truly has long complained to any who would listen of the irony of having a shyster's name on this, or any, ANA award, and is pleased to have uncovered a fine selection of Zerbe's deceptions, lies, and hoaxes while researching American numismatics.

What’s your opinion on Glenn Smedley? He has an ANA service award. 

[VKurtB]

By the way, @RWB or anyone else, do NOT think for a moment that I always agree with ANA’s legal counsel. I don’t. But she IS instructed to do her job in an extremely risk averse manner. This, and EVERY recent Board of Governors, has instructed Hollie to keep them out of litigation. So most recent litigation has been AGAINST Board members and professional staff. 

[leeg]

Good stuff all!

July 10th, 1905.

Mr. Farran Zerbe,

Concession No. 36,

Exposition Grounds.

 Dear Sir:

    I find, upon investigation, that you have been issuing a daily extra help pass to Miss. Paxon since June 20th. This must be discontinued, and a Photograph Pass applied for at once.

 Yours very truly, 

Chief, Department of Concessions.

CP.P.-D.H.”⁹

⁹ Lewis & Clark Centennial Exposition Records, Mss 1609, Oregon Historical Society Research Library, Series 8:  Division of Concessions and Admissions (John A. Wakefield), Contracts for Concessions, General Correspondence, Container: Box 48 Folder 7, Description: Zerbe, Farran (Sale of Lewis & Clark Coins), 1904-1905.

“July 11, 1905.

Mr. Farran Zerbe,

Souvenir Coins, Concession No. 36,

Exposition Grounds. 

Dear Sir:-

    The Chief of Concessions refers to me letter of Jas. F. Ewing, Collector, from the Treasurer’s office, reporting that in regard to bill #318, Farran Zerbe, amount $250.00, that you have your check already but will not pay until you have concluded negotiations now pending with the writer in regard to space in Mining Building.

    What is the matter of negotiation? Please call and see me regarding the matter at once, because I must advise that the bill above referred to must be paid without further delay.

 Yours very truly, 

Director of Concessions and Admissions.

JAW/H”¹⁰

¹⁰ Lewis & Clark Centennial Exposition Records, Mss 1609, Oregon Historical Society Research Library, Series 8:  Division of Concessions and Admissions (John A. Wakefield), Contracts for Concessions, General Correspondence, Container: Box 48 Folder 7, Description: Zerbe, Farran (Sale of Lewis & Clark Coins), 1904-1905.

[numisport]

Fortunately within this business the reputation of the individuals being sought are known. Unlike the so called journalism profession at major news outlets where Pulitzers are awarded for false reporting, our recognition of outstanding performance can withstand a test of time.

[VKurtB]

On 11/13/2021 at 9:23 AM, numisport said:

Fortunately within this business the reputation of the individuals being sought are known. Unlike the so called journalism profession at major news outlets where Pulitzers are awarded for false reporting, our recognition of outstanding performance can withstand a test of time.

BINGO! Especially the part about outright lies earning journalism awards.

[leeg]

[Henri Charriere]

@leeg  It appears someone has read "all those issues of The Numismatist, Mehl's Monthly, ANS journal and coin-club minutes and other references from the early 1900's." How else to explain the unequivocal stance of @RWB against him, and with such fervor?

The opening paragraph on hobo nickels was an eye-opener and something I never thought about beyond the creative artistic talent exhibited. Hard to believe anyone in numismatics today can get so worked up about something that occurred so many years ago, but then again my father (deceased) was adamant in insisting the Armenian genocide of 1915 never happened.

Thanks for reprinting the responses received by the current issue here.

 

[Mohawk]

Quote

adamant in insisting the Armenian genocide of 1915 never happened.

For some reason, that one was a tough one for people to swallow for over 100 years.  I actually did my Master's thesis on the Young Turks and the Ottoman Empire in World War I, so obviously the Armenian Genocide came up.  When I was writing my thesis in 2014-2015, many national governments actually hadn't acknowledged those events as a genocide yet and my committee told me that I really couldn't outright use that term at the time because of the debate about it and the lack of recognition of those events as a genocide.  I had to type this wishy-washy stuff about it saying basically that some authorities recognized the genocide as a genocide and some didn't, which I didn't like but I had to get this thing past a committee.  Now, it's being recognized as what it was; an indisputable genocide by more and more governments and authorities all the time.  Maybe I had less trouble accepting the genocide for what it was because part of my heritage is Bosnian, and the Ottomans weren't known for their kindness toward us, either.  And possibly it's because my mother's side is all German, and I already had to know of, accept and understand a genocide from that.  I don't know but I'm glad to finally see this genocide being called for what it is.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Mohawk

[RWB]

My opinion was informed by the letters in US Treasury Dept files relating to Zerbe, the PPIE commemorative fiasco, questions about his honesty, etc. I was not initially aware of his other problems relating to ANA, but they seem to fit his overall self-promotion attitude.

[VKurtB]

On 12/5/2021 at 6:31 PM, RWB said:

the PPIE commemorative fiasco,

The 1915 one, in San Francisco. Not to be confused with the CPIE, in 1935 &1936, in San Diego, which had its very own scandals regarding its commemorative halves. It seems none of those promoters were running an honest operation. Hoards always show up in the estates of the bigwigs, and (not relevant here) the estates of past mint directors.

Everyone is running a side hustle where coins are concerned. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by VKurtB