U.S. Mint is poor business operations.. 1 1

[Rodent]

Well anybody else get robbed by U.S. Mint today August 10th, 2021?  Yours personally had 6 coins in cart.. 3 of the 2021 Morgan's and 3 of 2021 Peace dollars. Put all info in credit card name etc..etc..went to place order and a page would pop up.. cannot access the page your looking for.. tried 7 times.. so now 30 minutes has gone by... check order again and a red warning said something like... there is an error in you order please adjust or something.. but it turns out the 2021 Morgan and Peace dollars are now unavailable.. so how can someone have items in cart and then not get them..I emailed U.S. Mint to ask them to honor my purchase.. but I am not expecting them to do anything.. if they do not honor my order purchase.. this coin collector will not ever buy another coin from U.S. Mint.. this has happened before.. I thought they got it all straightened out.. guess not.. good luck.. 

[RWB]

The US Mint's order acceptance system is too small for high-demand, short-term orders. The money to upgrade has to come from Congress and the dollar value of this type of order is very small and infrequent, so upgrading with capacity that will sit unused is not expedient. It was hoped that combining systems with BEP would help, but BEP rarely has large surges, to the total increased capacity was very modest.

[Conder101]

On 8/10/2021 at 4:11 PM, Rodent said:

so how can someone have items in cart and then not get them..

You can have them in you cart, but until you have checked out and "paid" for them they are not yours and are liable to be purchased by someone else.  If they have all been purchased before you are able to check out they have no more coins with which to fill your order, so you don't get them.

Having them in you cart is an indication you want them, but it is still first come first served at check out.  Unfortunately site problems kept you from getting through  before all the coins had been "served" to others.  Happens all the time on high popularity items.

And as Roger says, it doesn't make economic sense for them to expand the site capabilities to handle the massive demand that occurs for these high popularity items.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Conder101

[gmarguli]

On 8/10/2021 at 1:11 PM, Rodent said:

I emailed U.S. Mint to ask them to honor my purchase.. but I am not expecting them to do anything.. if they do not honor my order purchase.. this coin collector will not ever buy another coin from U.S. Mint.

Sorry, but it's an empty threat to not buy from the Mint. If it is something that you want, you'll buy it in the aftermarket. Instead of Rodent buying it from the Mint, Reseller001 will buy it and sell it to you. The Mint still got the initial sale. In fact, the Mint is better off by selling the same quantity to fewer buyers. 

[World Colonial]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:25 PM, gmarguli said:

The Mint still got the initial sale. In fact, the Mint is better off by selling the same quantity to fewer buyers. 

This is the first point I think people miss.  My inference is that the US Mint would rather not deal with the retail buyer, at all.

My second inference is that US Mint employees would rather not deal with collectible coins either, unless and except to the extent their job depends upon it.  I've never heard they get performance bonuses for sales volume or accounting profits, so why would they care unless they are also collectors?

The US Mint does not exist primarily to serve collectors and issuing collectible coins is not its primary mission.  It's to facilitate commerce with coinage which increasingly ends up in a "change jar" due to its perpetually decreasing purchasing power.

[Conder101]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:42 PM, World Colonial said:

My inference is that the US Mint would rather not deal with the retail buyer, at all.

Which is why they don't sell bullion directly to the public and use distributors instead.

[Henri Charriere]

But what about that recent announcement that they would be pivoting to auctions only?

[World Colonial]

On 8/11/2021 at 4:35 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

But what about that recent announcement that they would be pivoting to auctions only?

I hear it's going to happen but don't know if it is a one time event or not.  Either way, there are still going to be some who won't be satisfied.

Auctions will price some people out.

"Limited" mintage at below market prices means a quick sell out where everyone who wants one (even if only for "flipping") doesn't get one either

Minting to order means an almost certain loss for the buyer in the secondary market.

[Tyrock]

Good points being made. The fact remains that buying from the mint can at times be a very difficult situation. I'd prefer to see having a coin in your cart mean that you can actually buy it. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Tyrock

[Henri Charriere]

Really sad to see what this hobby has "evolved" into. Anybody remember when notices from the Mint came by mail? You mailed them a postal money order for $2. and change, and presto, that was it. A Proof Set for that year showed up routinely in your mailbox. Mission Accomplished. Dems were the dayz...

[Conder101]

On 8/12/2021 at 1:50 PM, Tyrock said:

I'd prefer to see having a coin in your cart mean that you can actually buy it. 

In which case most of the people who are able to get through after the first minute or so would find that can't put the item in their cart because all of them are already in everyone else's cart.  Open multiple windows and put them in your cart on every window.  You can only buy 3 but with 10 windows open you have 30 of them locked up so no on else can have them.

 

On 8/12/2021 at 3:09 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Anybody remember when notices from the Mint came by mail? You mailed them a postal money order for $2. and change, and presto, that was it. A Proof Set for that year showed up routinely in your mailbox.

Yep I remember.  You had to use their order card and it indicated the maximum number of sets you could order.  Send off the order, never hear another word until the set showed up 8 or 9 months later.  If nothing showed up them a couple months later you'd get a notice that unfortunately it was sold out, and they would process your refund. You should have it in a few months.  And during those 8 or 9 months there was no way to track your order or cancel it.  (Of course the money order was cashed as soon as they got it.)

[World Colonial]

I guess Congress could stop authorizing new coins, discontinue all non-circulating coinage except clad proof sets, and go back to the designs in use prior to SQ.

Oh wait, that wouldn't make everyone happy either.

[RWB]

On 8/11/2021 at 5:22 PM, World Colonial said:

Minting to order means an almost certain loss for the buyer in the secondary market.

The US Mint, as a government entity, should never be involved in the secondary market. Awareness is desirable for production planning, only.

Auctions by a producer are inherently inequitable, which is contrary to the equality expected of government. Proof set production is an excellent example of successful mint-to-demand; everyone could order at the same price and under the same terms (with some small adjustments for large volume buyers). That remains the best model, although fixed-production/order-limit can also work, if better management is in place.

[World Colonial]

On 8/13/2021 at 9:16 AM, RWB said:

The US Mint, as a government entity, should never be involved in the secondary market. Awareness is desirable for production planning, only.

Auctions by a producer are inherently inequitable, which is contrary to the equality expected of government. Proof set production is an excellent example of successful mint-to-demand; everyone could order at the same price and under the same terms (with some small adjustments for large volume buyers). That remains the best model, although fixed-production/order-limit can also work, if better management is in place.

I think you are missing my point.

One of the biggest complaints with US Mint issues is that it almost always loses value in the secondary market.  Where it doesn't, it's mostly due to increasing metal prices, not due to the desirability as a collectible.  Proof sets are successful if viewed as a collectible but that's not the reason for these complaints. 

The real root cause is that most buyers just don't like what they are collecting enough (whether it is new US Mint coins or otherwise) to lose money on it, though this sentiment varies with the amount of the loss depending upon the buyer.

I have never seen anyone admit this directly.  The most likely reason for it is because it brings into question the desirability of the hobby and the viability of the price level which is substantially and sometimes mostly contingent on marketing and financially motivated buying, aka "investment".

For anyone who spends "meaningful" amounts, only a (very) low proportion are spending what they do and paying the prices they pay primarily or exclusively as a recreational activity.  With this mindset, minting to demand which is the obvious option won't resolve the contradiction I am describing.

[Treeman]

Popular issues drive new people into the hobby. If you want the same old proof sets, and other high production issues, buy them at a discount aftermarket. If you really want a lower production issue, pay up in the aftermarket. Pretty simple. Those who managed to get a sought after issue feel very gratified, those who do not get it complain. Then, usually, they blame it on flippers. If I think an issue will be "hot", I buy whatever the limit is, whether I collect that series or not. If I get them, I sell quick, and use the profit to get something I collect. I worry about my collection, and not whether or not you were as lucky. When I get skunked, I don't complain about the Mint, I just figure maybe I will get lucky next time. All in all, these issues do make people more aware of the hobby, and keep it from dying off with us older folks. All this is just my opinion, and we all know what an opinion is worth....

[RWB]

Artistic excellence has never been the Mint's consistent goal, although there have been notable exceptions. Those exceptions, are however, well recognized, and have now been beaten into commercial mush through needless repetition and bastardization. The CCAC recommendations of a decade ago were not fully implemented, and thus the key component - a professional art director with both academic stature and authority - has never been hired.

On 8/13/2021 at 9:48 AM, World Colonial said:

I think you are missing my point. One of the biggest complaints with US Mint issues is that it almost always loses value in the secondary market.

No, your point was clear. It is my contention that what happens on the secondary market is not part of the US Mint's business. Other than fair initial distribution, secondary profit/loss is irrelevant. But, the Mint should be doing a much better job with product artistic quality.

[World Colonial]

On 8/13/2021 at 1:55 PM, RWB said:

No, your point was clear. It is my contention that what happens on the secondary market is not part of the US Mint's business. Other than fair initial distribution, secondary profit/loss is irrelevant. But, the Mint should be doing a much better job with product artistic quality.

Yes, I agree.

But by limiting the mintage below demand, they seem to be making it their business.  Assuming they care (and don't see why they would), seems to me the Mint could make more money selling to demand.

[RWB]

On 8/13/2021 at 2:57 PM, World Colonial said:

Yes, I agree.

But by limiting the mintage below demand, they seem to be making it their business.  Assuming they care (and don't see why they would), seems to me the Mint could make more money selling to demand.

Demand forecasting means collecting and sifting data - but Congress placed "excessive" controls on what could be done. That is also the reason for the fall in precious metal NCLT demand - lack of advertising that was promoting Mint products and coin collecting.

[World Colonial]

On 8/13/2021 at 5:00 PM, RWB said:

Demand forecasting means collecting and sifting data - but Congress placed "excessive" controls on what could be done. That is also the reason for the fall in precious metal NCLT demand - lack of advertising that was promoting Mint products and coin collecting.

I have another reason for the decline in demand.  It's over priced and buyers (many of whom aren't even real collectors) don't find it sufficiently interesting, sometimes not at all.

[rrantique]

On 8/12/2021 at 9:42 PM, Conder101 said:

In which case most of the people who are able to get through after the first minute or so would find that can't put the item in their cart because all of them are already in everyone else's cart.  Open multiple windows and put them in your cart on every window.  You can only buy 3 but with 10 windows open you have 30 of them locked up so no on else can have them.

 

Yep I remember.  You had to use their order card and it indicated the maximum number of sets you could order.  Send off the order, never hear another word until the set showed up 8 or 9 months later.  If nothing showed up them a couple months later you'd get a notice that unfortunately it was sold out, and they would process your refund. You should have it in a few months.  And during those 8 or 9 months there was no way to track your order or cancel it.  (Of course the money order was cashed as soon as they got it.)

Reminds me of the GSA orders back in the early seventies

[Conder101]

On 8/18/2021 at 2:46 PM, rrantique said:

Reminds me of the GSA orders back in the early seventies

That's the same time period for the mint purchasing system I described, but from what I understand it was that same system back to at least the early 60's.  Not sure how it was done in the 50's.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/18/2021 at 8:29 PM, Conder101 said:

That's the same time period for the mint purchasing system I described, but from what I understand it was that same system back to at least the early 60's.  Not sure how it was done in the 50's.

I can vouch for that. Dems were the dayz, alright.