MN1 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 Go with this for a moment. Take a Flying Eagle, Two Cent, Draped Bust, Seated Liberty and then a Morgan and send them off for grading. Although impossible let's just say they all have the same exact marks or nicks on them. Why is it the marks on the Morgan are just seen as bag marks and typically straight graded but the other coins get Details: Scratched. I've gone in on grading with a buddy to share/cut costs by submitting enough coins to make it worth while and we now have tried all 4 grading companies. The Morgans always came back without details yet look the worst in terms of being marked up. The others don't always get a pass. I'm not talking wear like a VF or XF verses a MS63 so to speak and whether a coin has prominent features remaining or not but the marks that then go on the label as Details: Scratched. I have seen coins where by eye I can't see the scratch and have to break out a magnifying glass whereas the Morgans you can clearly see all marks pretty much just looking at them. The worst of all with this is ANACS. Is it nitpicking? Anything and everything is a scratch? Still and regardless unless cleaned, Morgans seem to get off the easiest when it comes to DETAILS: SCRATCHED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods020 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 55 minutes ago, MN1 said: Go with this for a moment. Take a Flying Eagle, Two Cent, Draped Bust, Seated Liberty and then a Morgan and send them off for grading. Although impossible let's just say they all have the same exact marks or nicks on them. Why is it the marks on the Morgan are just seen as bag marks and typically straight graded but the other coins get Details: Scratched. I've gone in on grading with a buddy to share/cut costs by submitting enough coins to make it worth while and we now have tried all 4 grading companies. The Morgans always came back without details yet look the worst in terms of being marked up. The others don't always get a pass. I'm not talking wear like a VF or XF verses a MS63 so to speak and whether a coin has prominent features remaining or not but the marks that then go on the label as Details: Scratched. I have seen coins where by eye I can't see the scratch and have to break out a magnifying glass whereas the Morgans you can clearly see all marks pretty much just looking at them. The worst of all with this is ANACS. Is it nitpicking? Anything and everything is a scratch? Still and regardless unless cleaned, Morgans seem to get off the easiest when it comes to DETAILS: SCRATCHED. Do you have some examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 Big, heavy silver dollars, stored in bags that were moved around from place to place, constantly rubbing and scraping against other coins in the bag, tend to get more scratches and dings than smaller coins. This is just my opinion, but I think Morgans are treated differently in the grading room, because of their size, weight, and the circumstances in which they were stored. I feel the same way about double eagles. Like I said, just my opinion. Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods020 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 20 minutes ago, Just Bob said: Big, heavy silver dollars, stored in bags that were moved around from place to place, constantly rubbing and scraping against other coins in the bag, tend to get more scratches and dings than smaller coins. This is just my opinion, but I think Morgans are treated differently in the grading room, because of their size, weight, and the circumstances in which they were stored. I feel the same way about double eagles. Like I said, just my opinion. I agree completely. I think they take into account the known life of the coin. For coins like Morgans they know they were heavy coins in large bags transported great distances. Similarly they know drawbench marks, adjustment marks, etc. and can account for that not being damage per se but an expected occurrence. For other coins they weren’t expected to go through some of this or to the same extent so they are viewed differently. However it would be nice to see some examples you thought should have been considered bag marks. Sometimes it is just a scratch and that is easy enough to discern. Not every mark can be attributed to bag marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 If a coin receives a details-grade due to a scratch, you shouldn’t need magnification to see the offending flaw. Images of one such example might help. There’s usually a noticeable difference between normal bag-marks and a scratch that’s severe enough to result in a details-grade. And that’s whether the coin is a Morgan dollar or any other type. World Colonial 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 QA here, rank amateur with no grading experience and unlikely to attain any in the near future by mutual assent. Firstly, to grade any coin correctly, the collector must endeavor to acquire the finest example possible or view images of same taken under optimum lighting conditions. With newer, smaller and lighter coins this is not a problem, but with older, larger and heavier coins, it is only natural to expect more chatter scattered over a wider debris field. Secondly, the very fact that all the TPGS you've submitted your coins to came up with similar results should come to you as assurance that, coming from widely disparate backgrounds, knowledge and experience, the grading skills exhibited measure up to the job at hand. Case in point: the 1933 Saint-Gaudens DE. I examined her left leg 🦵and was immediately denounced for rendering a scientific diagnosis of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus, or MRSA. My analysis, backed up by those too intimidated to speak publicly for attribution was summarily dismissed without explanation, and superseded by a Grading Finalizer who deemed it to be the casualty of intense inspection, slapped an MS-65 "designated" grade on it, clearing it for auction which, after a few minutes of frantic bidding, realized a FMV of $18.9 million ➕ a 20% buyer's fee. Have you seen the finest available images of the coin? Forget the other banged up Morgans for a moment and, at your convenience, tell us how you would have graded this coin, and why. Unsolicited editorial comment: I forsee a day when forensic techniques routinely used by the Gemological Institute to distinguish the unique characteristics of every diamond are adopted by the numismatic community putting an end to constant regrading, counterfeits and stolen goods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 18 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:QA here, rank amateur with no grading experience and unlikely to attain any in the near future by mutual assent. Firstly, to grade any coin correctly, the collector must endeavor to acquire the finest example possible or view images of same taken under optimum lighting conditions. With newer, smaller and lighter coins this is not a problem, but with older, larger and heavier coins, it is only natural to expect more chatter scattered over a wider debris field. Secondly, the very fact that all the TPGS you've submitted your coins to came up with similar results should come to you as assurance that, coming from widely disparate backgrounds, knowledge and experience, the grading skills exhibited measure up to the job at hand. Case in point: the 1933 Saint-Gaudens DE. I examined her left leg 🦵and was immediately denounced for rendering a scientific diagnosis of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus, or MRSA. My analysis, backed up by those too intimidated to speak publicly for attribution was summarily dismissed without explanation, and superseded by a Grading Finalizer who deemed it to be the casualty of intense inspection, slapped an MS-65 "designated" grade on it, clearing it for auction which, after a few minutes of frantic bidding, realized a FMV of $18.9 million ➕ a 20% buyer's fee. Have you seen the finest available images of the coin? Forget the other banged up Morgans for a moment and, at your convenience, tell us how you would have graded this coin, and why. Unsolicited editorial comment: I forsee a day when forensic techniques routinely used by the Gemological Institute to distinguish the unique characteristics of every diamond are adopted by the numismatic community putting an end to constant regrading, counterfeits and stolen goods. It likely wouldn’t be in the best interest of grading companies to put an end to re-grades. I’m not saying that they should have their way, but I expect that they’ll get it. Either way, that wouldn’t put an end to counterfeits and stolen goods. The great majority of counterfeits aren’t currently (and wouldn’t in the future) be submitted for grading. And any stolen goods that are in holders can be removed from them and then sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MN1 Posted July 4, 2021 Author Share Posted July 4, 2021 I never claimed to be an expert and that's not what my post is about. These detail grades are mostly on my buddy's coins. Any I had I sold off or traded as I don't like details on my coins even if a low/mid grade coin. Anyway, what I was getting at was that Morgans (MS62, MS63, MS64) seem to show more marks on the cheeks and rarely seem noted as scratches. Sure there are some that get details but in seeing what my buddy received as "Scratched" compared to the likes of low MS Morgans baffles me. Forget Morgans in typical TPG holders and instead lets look at graded CC Morgans in the GSA holders. Go to Great Collections or Ebay and look at the graded MS62-MS64 GSA's. Uncirculated or not, the cheeks and fields are loaded with scratches (or bag marks if you will). Why is something you have look for with a magnifying class on an 1805 Draped Bust half cent a scratch but something worse on a Morgan acceptable? Sure photos would help and when I can get some forwarded to me from my buddy I'll post add them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, MN1 said: I never claimed to be an expert and that's not what my post is about. These detail grades are mostly on my buddy's coins. Any I had I sold off or traded as I don't like details on my coins even if a low/mid grade coin. Anyway, what I was getting at was that Morgans (MS62, MS63, MS64) seem to show more marks on the cheeks and rarely seem noted as scratches. Sure there are some that get details but in seeing what my buddy received as "Scratched" compared to the likes of low MS Morgans baffles me. Forget Morgans in typical TPG holders and instead lets look at graded CC Morgans in the GSA holders. Go to Great Collections or Ebay and look at the graded MS62-MS64 GSA's. Uncirculated or not, the cheeks and fields are loaded with scratches (or bag marks if you will). Why is something you have look for with a magnifying class on an 1805 Draped Bust half cent a scratch but something worse on a Morgan acceptable? Sure photos would help and when I can get some forwarded to me from my buddy I'll post add them. Typically, contact marks with other coins and normal circulation marks are treated differently than conspicuous scratches, gouges, etc., or marks (such as graffiti) that look as if they were applied intentionally. Again, I’d be very surprised if magnification were required to see a scratch on a details-grade, scratched coin. Under normal circumstances, that shouldn’t be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 26 minutes ago, MarkFeld said: Typically, contact marks with other coins and normal circulation marks are treated differently than conspicuous scratches, gouges, etc., or marks (such as graffiti) that look as if they were applied intentionally. Again, I’d be very surprised if magnification were required to see a scratch on a details-grade, scratched coin. Under normal circumstances, that shouldn’t be the case. Yep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 1 hour ago, MarkFeld said: And any stolen goods that are in holders can be removed from them and then sold. [Like snowflakes, no two diamonds are alike. I'm going to have to go down to the Diamond District and find out exactly what it is they use to determine what makes every diamond unique enough to register and see whether that technology can be adapted to coins.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said: [Like snowflakes, no two diamonds are alike. I'm going to have to go down to the Diamond District and find out exactly what it is they use to determine what makes every diamond unique enough to register and see whether that technology can be adapted to coins.] It wouldn’t matter. Countless owners wouldn’t bother to register their coins even if it didn’t cost them anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 1 minute ago, MarkFeld said: It wouldn’t matter. Countless owners wouldn’t bother to register their coins even if it didn’t cost them anything. What if registration were a requirement for insurance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said: What if registration were a requirement for insurance? I don’t see that happening and many owners don’t insure their coins. I get the sense that there are more coins out there then you’re thinking.😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 7 minutes ago, MarkFeld said: I don’t see that happening and many owners don’t insure their coins. I get the sense that there are more coins out there then you’re thinking.😉 Check Mate You Win 🏆 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
