How does NGC designate a coin as "SP"? 1 1

[Woods020]

I’ll take a stab and ask NGC in the ask NGC section for a detailed definition in their terms. The only other question I’ve ever asked, which was probably 4 months ago at this point, never was answered. And it was a legitimate question about an NGC slabbed SCD. Anyway I’ll see what they say. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

1 hour ago, Woods020 said:

I’ll take a stab and ask NGC in the ask NGC section for a detailed definition in their terms. The only other question I’ve ever asked, which was probably 4 months ago at this point, never was answered. And it was a legitimate question about an NGC slabbed SCD. Anyway I’ll see what they say. 

Here's a NGC article from 2019 expanding on the SP designation, in it they describe the SP designation as a "catchall that is applied to a variety of finishes" , it's like a magical limbo between proofs and circulation strikes.   

Learn Grading: What Are the SP and PL Prefixes? | NGC (ngccoin.com) 

[Woods020]

36 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Here's a NGC article from 2019 expanding on the SP designation, in it they describe the SP designation as a "catchall that is applied to a variety of finishes" , it's like a magical limbo between proofs and circulation strikes.   

Learn Grading: What Are the SP and PL Prefixes? | NGC (ngccoin.com) 

Well this state school kid is still confused. I understand matte finishes or other different coins that don’t fit into any category. But they describe them also as coins with frosted devices and mirrored fields. They even say previously thought “proofs” were now SP. Why wouldn’t that the PL then? It would make sense if SP was for a unique characteristic, but makes no sense if it also includes what would seemingly be PL. 

[zadok]

3 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

From what I recall, nearly every classic coin I've seen that was labeled "Specimen" - and there have been quite a few - displayed proof-like characteristics.

please clarify....u r speaking of US coins?

[RWB]

22 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

"catchall that is applied to a variety of finishes"

"When you wish upon a star, you might get a stale cigar....." (Jiminy Cricket's original lyrics.)

Edited June 22, 2021 by RWB

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, zadok said:

please clarify....u r speaking of US coins?

Yes.

[Henri Charriere]

23 hours ago, VKurtB said:

What about brilliant proof piedfort coins? I have several from Great Britain and they have the prefix PF in front of their numerical grade.

I had taken the liberty of departing from the OP's question concerning SP specimens by noting the use of SPL, sometimes rendered SP in France and Italy, but you are correct: PF is used by Great Britain, equivalent to our Pf, France's BE for Belle Epreuve -- and Allemagne's PP for Polierte Platte, proofs all.

[VKurtB]

12 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I had taken the liberty of departing from the OP's question concerning SP specimens by noting the use of SPL, sometimes rendered SP in France and Italy, but you are correct: PF is used by Great Britain, equivalent to our Pf, France's BE for Belle Epreuve -- and Allemagne's PP for Polierte Platte, proofs all.

In the present context, the only thing I care about is what NGC calls them, and that the decisions surrounding them are consistent and sensible. I don’t care about nitpicking accuracy. Our hobby doesn’t DO accuracy well, and I’ve become accustomed to that.

[Henri Charriere]

[Note:  Wikipedia continues to refer to all five 1913 Liberty Head nickels as Specimens devoting a brief historical account for each under headings as follows: Elias erg Specimen, Olsen Specimen, Norweb Specimen, Walton Specimen and McDermott Specimen.]

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Note:  Wikipedia continues to refer to all five 1913 Liberty Head nickels as Specimens devoting a brief historical account for each under headings as follows: Elias erg Specimen, Olsen Specimen, Norweb Specimen, Walton Specimen and McDermott Specimen.]

Any coin can be (and often is) referred to as a "specimen", just like it might be an "example", 'representative", etc. And that, in itself, isn't saying anything about how it was produced. "Specimen" - "an example of something such as a product or piece of work, regarded as typical of its class or group."

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Edited June 22, 2021 by MarkFeld

[MarkFeld]

46 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

In the present context, the only thing I care about is what NGC calls them, and that the decisions surrounding them are consistent and sensible. I don’t care about nitpicking accuracy. Our hobby doesn’t DO accuracy well, and I’ve become accustomed to that.

I don't think it's "nitpicking accuracy" to seek a basis and some sort of documentation for labeling a coin a "specimen". Especially, in the many instances in which the designation can increase a coin's market value by multiples.

 I've seen more than a few such coins that appeared to be lacking "consistent and sensible" decisions. 

[Henri Charriere]

@MarkFeld At the risk of incurring the wrath of those members who violently disagree with the use of the term specimen, I wholeheartedly agree with your two-part explanation.

@RWB Wikipedia also inexplicably uses the term Pedigree instead of the obviously correct Provenance in a heading.

[Woods020]

I have posed the question to NGC to further clarify their use of SP last night. We shall see if it gets answered. It seems they answer the “where is my order” or “why didn’t you give me this variety” questions but not so much some of the true numismatic questions. 

[Henri Charriere]

7 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

I have posed the question to NGC to further clarify their use of SP last night. We shall see if it gets answered. It seems they answer the “where is my order” or “why didn’t you give me this variety” questions but not so much some of the true numismatic questions. 

I am going to guess that adoption of a decision that may have far-reaching consequences is going to require a meeting of the minds at a sit-down and when a consensus is reached, on this and other "non-urgent" matters, a statement will issue.  The turnaround time on such proceedings is undefined and may take time.

[MarkFeld]

4 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I am going to guess that adoption of a decision that may have far-reaching consequences is going to require a meeting of the minds at a sit-down and when a consensus is reached, on this and other "non-urgent" matters, a statement will issue.  The turnaround time on such proceedings is undefined and may take time.

So are you saying that the turnaround time for an explanation of an undefined term is undefined?

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

I don't think it's "nitpicking accuracy" to seek a basis and some sort of documentation for labeling a coin a "specimen". Especially, in the many instances in which the designation can increase a coin's market value by multiples.

 I've seen more than a few such coins that appeared to be lacking "consistent and sensible" decisions. 

How about the 1994 and 1997 Coin & Currency Set nickels, for one?

[MarkFeld]

2 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

How about the 1994 and 1997 Coin & Currency Set nickels, for one?

I know nothing about those. As mentioned, in an earlier post, I'm speaking about older/classic U.S. coins.

[VKurtB]

1 minute ago, MarkFeld said:

I know nothing about those. As mentioned, in an earlier post, I'm speaking about older/classic U.S. coins.

Ahh, but the modern usage is every bit as controversial, no?

[MarkFeld]

10 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Ahh, but the modern usage is every bit as controversial, no?

I don't know.

[RWB]

Although more limited, the word "specimen" was subject to confusion even in pre-1860 numismatics. One can usually determine its meaning from context, but in some situations the reader has to dig into other documents by the same author - and even them might fail.

Director J. R. Snowden used master coin, proof coin, and specimen synonymously - at times. He also used pattern piece, trial piece, experimental piece, and specimen synonymously AND with individual meanings, occasionally in the same long letter. However, it was not used to label a purpose-made piece in recognition of some person or event.

[Henri Charriere]

3 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

So are you saying that the turnaround time for an explanation of an undefined term is undefined?

Yes. And if anyone would know, it would be you (unless your NDA prohibits 🚫 you from speaking for attribution.)