1921 Peace Dollar - good strike
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62 posts in this topic

[Unfortunately, this is about as far as the Moderators will let this conversation go.  Times change, people change.  How you feel about this matter depends on how old you are, your knowledge of the state's history and where you were in the 1950's and 1960's. 

There are whole blocs of people who cannot vote by law in Florida and the shenanigans in Philly whereby voting districts recorded 100% voting for a single candidate are legion.

I will return to Mississippi (and Alabama) someday -- but only with my wife in the front seat and my wife in the back.  Gentlemen, I must go now before someone asks what any of this has to do with the 1921 Peace Dollar.]

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On 3/2/2021 at 7:03 PM, RWB said:

The earlier post with little blue and red arrows was an attempt to help members identify well-struck (detailed) examples when buying. However, a couple of folks have asked to see the coin with out distractions, so here it is. Also, a recent thread ATS features a nicely struck 1921, and members are encouraged to compare the two coins.

1921-pair sm.jpg

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1 minute ago, dollarfan said:

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RWB this is my 65+ peace i was telling you about last week.  i had to go digging.  it looks like a beat down dog compared to yours.  the strike is clearly much weaker,  this one does have luster and silver "sparkles" on all the high points so is it correct that would make it later in the die process?  i have a 64 that when i saw it i bought it because of the amazing detail,  im gonna dig for that one.  i think it has a much better strike.

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34 minutes ago, dollarfan said:

the strike is clearly much weaker,  this one does have luster and silver "sparkles" on all the high points so is it correct that would make it later in the die process? 

Your coin was likely made during the 2nd full day of production - which is when all but about 100,000 1921s were struck. The luster and slight graininess along the periphery are from normal die wear. The graininess is also an early sign of steel that is not responding well to high pressure - possibly it was improperly tempered....?

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On 3/7/2021 at 11:44 AM, dollarfan said:

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Pardon the input but was this conserved?, I have recently sent in a 21 65+ for conserve and regrade and when it arrives back some time next year...jk...ill post the pics but this seems ultra clean compared to the few 65 plus I've seen.

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On 3/2/2021 at 8:03 PM, RWB said:

The earlier post with little blue and red arrows was an attempt to help members identify well-struck (detailed) examples when buying. However, a couple of folks have asked to see the coin with out distractions, so here it is. Also, a recent thread ATS features a nicely struck 1921, and members are encouraged to compare the two coins.

1921-pair sm.jpg

Looks beautiful...almost like it never touched another coin in its life...but agreeing with others the shine seems a little light but I'm a complete newbie so pardon my ignorance.

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2 minutes ago, Dark Chameleon said:

Looks beautiful...almost like it never touched another coin in its life...but agreeing with others the shine seems a little light but I'm a complete newbie so pardon my ignorance.

There are a few marks and dings. One is on the neck, a couple in the obv rays, and on the eagle's back.

The first coins off a new die will have a satin-like appearance - no real luster as that term is commonly used - from the original surface of the die. Luster develops as the die is used and the surface deforms. It takes only 25 blows to remove most of the original satin.

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8 hours ago, Dark Chameleon said:

Pardon the input but was this conserved?, I have recently sent in a 21 65+ for conserve and regrade and when it arrives back some time next year...jk...ill post the pics but this seems ultra clean compared to the few 65 plus I've seen.

It wasnt by me as this was how i bought the coin but they did an amazing job if they did.  coin looks much better in hand it is a true blazer

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Dollarfan--

Your MS-65+ is typical for production from the 2nd day - striking pressure was reduced to better preserve dies, but that eliminated nearly all hope of bringing up the full detail of the original cast. (See a Guide Book of Peace Dollars for illustrations comparing detail. See Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 for in-depth information on the origin, design and initial production of Peace dollars. Both books are by the present writer, and are built on modern research, not the imagination of Wally Breen and others.)

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There's no concavity to these High Relief Peace Dollars.....you can see Liberty/the device rise above the fields like Olympus Mons rises above the Martian plains (bet you never thought you'd see that analogy ! xD ).

Why no concavity like the 1907 High Reliefs ?   The coins must have got alot more abraison without it.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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9 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

There's no concavity to these High Relief Peace Dollars.....you can see Liberty/the device rise above the fields like Olympus Mons rises above the Martian plains (bet you never thought you'd see that analogy ! xD ).

Why no concavity like the 1907 High Reliefs ?   The coins must have got a lot more abrasion without it.

Don't know. Just the way the sculptor prepared the models.

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12 minutes ago, RWB said:

Don't know. Just the way the sculptor prepared the models.

Then are they really "high relief" ?  I thought the coins had to be -- or should be -- concave.

These things must have abraded a ton if used in circulation.  

 

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The central design has greater relief above the field than "normal" coins - so that would be high relief. The field also is somewhat concave. A medal press should have been able to bring up all the design, but it might have taken 2 blows. I've never seen a proof or circulation piece with full (equal to the model) relief....but one might exist. Part of this might relate to the purpose of the proofs - they were not "pretty pieces" for sale. They were for internal design approval. This also explains the antiquing applied to some. It was an era when the "art of the medal" dominated and the closer our coins could be to medals, the better.

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Looks like you got a nice one from the 2nd day's press run! Congrats!

:)

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48 minutes ago, RWB said:

Looks like you got a nice one from the 2nd day's press run! Congrats!

:)

Are you going to get yours graded?, it will feel good to see what its like after restoration...it doesn't seem to be as grainy as dollarfans so an earlier second day...it does have a nice brow hair line especially compared to my other 65s but they are ofcourse not high relief being 22 through 35.

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Do you mean the coin I posted? No. I understand why collectors like the reassurance. There's no purpose for me and I really don't care what a TPG's opinion is.

:)

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7 minutes ago, RWB said:

Do you mean the coin I posted? No. I understand why collectors like the reassurance. There's no purpose for me and I really don't care what a TPG's opinion is.

:)

It never gets old looking at the one you posted at the beginning of this thread. It's truly an amazing coin. Very beautiful. I like the ones @Dark Chameleonposted also. 

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On 4/22/2021 at 2:05 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Why no concavity like the 1907 High Reliefs ?  

Concavity... never knew the word existed but it explains why I declined to buy that special UHR the Mint came out with not long ago.  I compared the specs with the originals and a photo from the Mint and discovered [to my dismay] that to compensate for the elevation the traditional S-G-sized D/E was reduced in diameter.  

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2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I compared the specs with the originals and a photo from the Mint and discovered [to my dismay] that to compensate for the elevation the traditional S-G-sized D/E was reduced in diameter.  

27 mm vs. 34 mm for the original.

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11 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Concavity... never knew the word existed but it explains why I declined to buy that special UHR the Mint came out with not long ago.  I compared the specs with the originals and a photo from the Mint and discovered [to my dismay] that to compensate for the elevation the traditional S-G-sized D/E was reduced in diameter.  

Uhhhh...no. The director's intent was to imitate the small size experimental DE made from Saint-Gaudens' original 1906 models. The small diameter, thick pieces were intentional and had nothing to do with relief. The experiment was to see if a high relief DE could be struck with one strike if the planchet were made smaller in diameter but thicker.

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10 minutes ago, RWB said:

Uhhhh...no. The director's intent was to imitate the small size experimental DE made from Saint-Gaudens' original 1906 models. The small diameter, thick pieces were intentional and had nothing to do with relief. The experiment was to see if a high relief DE could be struck with one strike if the planchet were made smaller in diameter but thicker.

I know it wold have increased the cost but they should have also made a 2 oz. or even 1.5 oz. version which was 34 mm. in diameter to better show the features.  The 27 mm. is very small.  It's THICKER than other modern gold bullion coins but smaller diameter-wise because of the thickness and ultra high relief.

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It was not supposed to be a normal DE diameter, and neither were the originals. Further, no small diameter DE are in private hands, so there could never be any deception or "Newly Discovered" .

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It would have been nice if the 2021s were the same size as the original even if more weight but neither 90% or same size makes for an off sized coin for a display of 19s to 20s display...although the existence thus year seems to be boosting morgans and peace which is not bad as an owner although my last date to collect '1927' has jumped by $300 ..still thankful i have 9 already and just 1 to get.

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10 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

27 mm vs. 34 mm for the original.

Any noticeably smaller than the old-time silver dollars and the ASE's. Thanks for checking! 

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1 hour ago, RWB said:

Uhhhh...no. The director's intent was to imitate the small size experimental DE made from Saint-Gaudens' original 1906 models. The small diameter, thick pieces were intentional and had nothing to do with relief. The experiment was to see if a high relief DE could be struck with one strike if the planchet were made smaller in diameter but thicker.

Well, that explains everything.  Thanks for the clarification!

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My first post -  greetings!

I looked for a number of years for a well struck '21 and was very happy to find this one maybe 3 years ago.  I recently got it photographed as my abilities are quite limited.  It is a VAM-1F2 - apparently struck with the matte proof dies with a collar clash on the reverse.  

1921-Peace-Dollar-NGC-MS-64-VAM-1F2 _ reduced.jpg

Edited by srs1a1
added apparently
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Posted (edited)

A very nice coin with above average details. Don't let anyone talk you down on it's value. ("VAM-1F2" = dies used for striking proofs that were then sandblasted, not "matte" - that term is now used only for the early Lincoln and Buffalo proofs.) Compare details with this (same coin as earlier in thread only color balance returned to normal):

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Edited by RWB
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