Letter 1 1

[Hoghead515]

I read a very interesting letter just now Thomas Jefferson wrote to John Jay in 1787  regarding Jean Pierre Droz's ability to strike very nice coins. Evidently they were concerned about counterfeits from the beginning before they established a mint. And one way to help prevent them was to strike very nice coins that would be hard to duplicate. Here's a quote from Jefferson.       "Coin should always be made in the highest perfection possible because it is a great guard against the danger of false coinage."   I found that very interesting and wanted to share it on here. Maybe if anyone wanted to add any feedback or comments it would be very much welcomed. I enjoy talking to you all and learning from your great knowledge. 

 

[Hoghead515]

Didn't mean to post this in the newbie thread. Sorry about that everyone. 

[coinsandmedals]

Counterfeiting was a massive problem throughout most of Europe during this time, so it seems logical that the U.S. would have similar concerns. If you would like to read more about the counterfeiting issue in England, I encourage you to check out one of my NGC custom sets, where I give a very brief introduction of the topic from 1694-1807. You might also enjoy one of my recent NGC journals where I share a declaration made by King George II to address the counterfeiting issue. Finally, if you would like to read a bit more about how the Soho Mint helped curb the issue in England, I encourage you to check out my other custom registry set. The last link provided goes into more detail about Droz's invention and its ability to apply edge lettering while simultaneously striking the coin's obverse and reverse. This all seems a bit self-serving, and I apologize for that. I have spent a great deal of time building the sets linked above, and it seems that you may enjoy the information contained within them. If you do not want to click the links above you can also click on the small icons within my signature on this forum to access them. 

Here are some fun facts that I do not discuss in any of the links above: 

1. Thomas Jefferson actively recruited Droz, but Matthew Boulton (the founder of the Soho mint) secured his employment. As it turns out, this might have been the best possible outcome for the U.S. Mint as Droz was not the most productive worker. 

2. The Soho Mint was in an on-again/off-again relationship with the U.S. for a potential coinage contract. Jefferson and Thomas Paine opposed this suggestion for several reasons. Eventually, the idea of securing a "Mint" equipped with steam engines from Boulton was suggested. This never occurred, but it is an exciting part of numismatic history. 

3. The Soho Mint supplied copper planchets to the U.S. Mint to strike large cents and half cents. 

This list could go on and on.... I have a neat document I plan to share shortly that discusses preparations on behalf of Parliament to authorize the exportation of a "Mint" from England to the United States in 1816. Please let me know if you would like to discuss any of this further. I love talking about this era of numismatics!
 

[Hoghead515]

I would love to check out your sets and learn more. I have come to love this hobby. I have bout come to love learning the history as much as collecting the coins. Thank you very much for the information. I really enjoy reading about this time period also. Any kind of history around this time period I love but I really find it interesting of how they were trying to establish a mint. I also read about where they rejected using Morris money system he came up with and decided to go with fractions of a dollar. I think it was Jefferson who decided on that wasn't it?  I need to read it again. I really enjoyed it. 

[Hoghead515]

2 hours ago, coinsandmedals said:

Counterfeiting was a massive problem throughout most of Europe during this time, so it seems logical that the U.S. would have similar concerns. If you would like to read more about the counterfeiting issue in England, I encourage you to check out one of my NGC custom sets, where I give a very brief introduction of the topic from 1694-1807. You might also enjoy one of my recent NGC journals where I share a declaration made by King George II to address the counterfeiting issue. Finally, if you would like to read a bit more about how the Soho Mint helped curb the issue in England, I encourage you to check out my other custom registry set. The last link provided goes into more detail about Droz's invention and its ability to apply edge lettering while simultaneously striking the coin's obverse and reverse. This all seems a bit self-serving, and I apologize for that. I have spent a great deal of time building the sets linked above, and it seems that you may enjoy the information contained within them. If you do not want to click the links above you can also click on the small icons within my signature on this forum to access them. 

Here are some fun facts that I do not discuss in any of the links above: 

1. Thomas Jefferson actively recruited Droz, but Matthew Boulton (the founder of the Soho mint) secured his employment. As it turns out, this might have been the best possible outcome for the U.S. Mint as Droz was not the most productive worker. 

2. The Soho Mint was in an on-again/off-again relationship with the U.S. for a potential coinage contract. Jefferson and Thomas Paine opposed this suggestion for several reasons. Eventually, the idea of securing a "Mint" equipped with steam engines from Boulton was suggested. This never occurred, but it is an exciting part of numismatic history. 

3. The Soho Mint supplied copper planchets to the U.S. Mint to strike large cents and half cents. 

This list could go on and on.... I have a neat document I plan to share shortly that discusses preparations on behalf of Parliament to authorize the exportation of a "Mint" from England to the United States in 1816. Please let me know if you would like to discuss any of this further. I love talking about this era of numismatics!
 

You have some very nice coins and I really enjoyed the descriptions and the stories behind them. Thank you for sharing that. 

[RWB]

There is a file of letters to/from Mathew Boulton relating to the US Mint and possible sale of English equipment etc., available on NNP at no cost. It is recorded as "NARA RG-104 Entry 2 "Boulton letters"

[Hoghead515]

12 minutes ago, RWB said:

There is a file of letters to/from Mathew Boulton relating to the US Mint and possible sale of English equipment etc., available on NNP at no cost. It is recorded as "NARA RG-104 Entry 2 "Boulton letters"

I will definitely look into them. I like reading those old letters. Some of them are very interesting. And some of those old diary entries also. Such as Robert Morris old diary entries. I read an article that had some of them in it. He was talking about that Dudley guy was asking for money in bout every other entry. That must be some of my old ladys ancestors. Lol

Edited February 2, 2021 by Hoghead515

[coinsandmedals]

10 hours ago, RWB said:

NARA RG-104 Entry 2 "Boulton letters"

I am ashamed to admit that I haven’t had the chance to look this over yet. Communication between the US and Matthew Robinson Boulton continued well after Matthew Boulton’s death in 1809. It will be interesting to see if the file differentiates between the two authors.  

[RWB]

The letters are all in one box containing 6 folders. The folder titles and date ranges are:

RG 104 E-2 Folder 1 1796-1800
RG 104 E-2 Folder 2 1800-1802
RG 104 E-2 Folder 3 1803-1809
RG 104 E-2 Folder 4 1809-1815
RG 104 E-2 Folder 5 1816-1833
RG 104 E-2 Folder 6 1835-1838

As opportunity permits I will edit the images so they are more easily read and the files much smaller.

Here is the citation for NARA's Philadelphia facility. These were extracted from General Correspondence during the WPA collection and organization of government archives. There are additional Boulton letters scattered through E-1 and elsewhere. Readers should also refer to Dr.Richard Doty's book, The Soho Mint & the Industrialization of Money. (Dr. Doty was the late Curator of Numismatics at the Smithsonian, and a friend.)

2  "BOULTON CORRESPONDENCE."   1796-1838   6 in.

      Chiefly letters from and drafts of replies to Mathew R. Boulton of the Boulton Mint, a private institution in England, which supplied the United States Mint with copper.  The letters dated after 1808 are signed "M. Robinson Boulton."  Included are a letter of January 1, 1843, from the agent of the Soho Mint (the Boulton Mint) to the Director of the Philadelphia Mint relating to mint operations after the death of Mr. Boulton, and a report of May 15, 1836, from the Philadelphia assayers regarding the use of silver tokens for currency and referring to the Boulton Mint.  Originally this series was a part of the correspondence described in entry 1.  The correspondence is arranged chronologically.  For copies of other letters sent to Mr. Boulton, see entry 3.

Edited February 2, 2021 by RWB

[coinsandmedals]

As always, I appreciate the information.

10 minutes ago, RWB said:

Readers should also refer to Dr.Richard Doty's book, The Soho Mint & the Industrialization of Money. (Dr. Doty was the late Curator of Numismatics at the Smithsonian, and a friend.)

This is one of my favorite numismatic reads, and I can not recommend it enough! I rarely have time to read a book for an extended period, but this book demanded my attention. There are many other good books on the subject that I would be happy to recommend; however, none compare to his work. From what I can gather, the book only tells a small portion of what he learned from the Soho archives, so you can only imagine what a conversation with him would have been like! 

[Hoghead515]

I've had a wonderful time reading the info on everything. That report on May 15 ,1836 was on my birthday.  Just a year or two before I was born though. Thank you all for posting all the wonderful information. It is cherished. I get very excited reading and learning about this kind of stuff.

[Hoghead515]

I got a little bit confused. It's hard for me to understand some of these old letters and things. Sometimes I have to read something several times. I was studying into it some more. Did Jarvis have the Fuguo coins struck across seas against Congress wishes?  Seems the way I'm taking it is Congress wanted them struck over here to show we were a self relient country and in case of a war. And I read an appeal letter from Jarvis that says it was necessary to strike them in Europe to met the demand in his contract. And it also said something about Jarvis defaulted his contract. Did I read something wrong or am I understanding Jarvis wasn't supposed to have them struck in Europe? I got totally lost somewhere. 

[Hoghead515]

Reading into it some more it looks like he was having a very hard time fulfilling his contract with the 300 tons of copper coinage he promised Congress. Also I guess Jarvis never accounted for all the government copper. The author is kinda making him out to be a shady character. He's saying some of that copper may have been used to strike some Connecticut coppers. 

[coinsandmedals]

32 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Reading into it some more it looks like he was having a very hard time fulfilling his contract with the 300 tons of copper coinage he promised Congress. Also I guess Jarvis never accounted for all the government copper. The author is kinda making him out to be a shady character. He's saying some of that copper may have been used to strike some Connecticut coppers. 

Rightfully so, Jarvis was a sketchy character. In part, the only reason Jarvis secured the contract for the Fugio coppers was because he bribed Colonel William Duer with an obscene amount of money ($10,000 if I remember correctly). Not surprisingly, he was granted the contract, and Duer allowed him access to a large amount of government owned copper to strike the Fugio pieces. Instead, the copper was mostly used to strike the Connecticut copper coinage as it was lighter weight than what was specified for the Fugio pieces, which translated into more profit for Jarvis. that is not to say that he did not strike Fugio coppers. He did, but they were underweight compared to the government's specifications, and the amount received did not account for the full amount of copper provided by the government. I am sure there is much more to the story, but this what I remember off the top of my head. I am confident that @RWB can elaborate further. 

[RWB]

You folks are doing just fine and my fingers need a break. I'll leave the elaboration to Eric P. Newman in his book on Fugio cents.

[Hoghead515]

Very interesting. Seems like he was trying to justify himself in that appeal letter pretty badly before Congress. I found it interesting they found those Fugio coin dies at his father in laws New Haven Mint years later  where they are pretty sure the Connecticut coppers were struck also. He was probably in on it also. Didn't they both go back across the pond after Jarvis was found for breach of contract? Jarvis and Samuel Broome?  The article didn't say much more but I did see where after it was all said and done he ended up getting fined a little over $10,000.  I saw where they went back to Europe but, I think it may have been before his trial. I'm not sure. I had trouble understanding it. I didn't know if he was trying to evade the US or what the reason was.  But he seemed like a weasel. It's hard to say what all undocumented things he done and got by with. He done old Duer wrong. Duer seemed a little shady also didn't he ?  He gave that 12,809 pounds of gov copper to Jarvis 4 months before Congress decided to do a contract coinage. That's what the $10,000 dollars he bribed Duer over wasn't it? Over that?  I'm starting to get it. With your alls help. You've been a tremendous help to me understanding this. Thank you. I can't hardly understand they're letters real well. You all have done studied and know all about it. Its helping translate what I read. Very interesting story. There's been crooks since man was created it seems. Old Jarvis seen his opportunity to get some copper. He's worse than my neighbors. They like to steal copper also. Maybe not quite the amount Jarvis did though.