Carbon spots and grading 1 1

[GBrad]

Hello to all and an early Merry Christmas.  This Lincoln about blinded me when I opened up a normal ol’ bank roll. The luster is phenomenal and their is barely any resemblance of PMD aside from the one tiny ding on a column on the reverse. As far as I can tell, the fields are as immaculate as any Cent I’ve come across. My question: There are some minor carbon spots on this coin as you can see. Not that I’m going to send this one in for grading, I’m just reaching out for some info on how much these small spots detract from the final grade on a zinc in the event I come across a coin in better condition than this one. I have however compared this coin and it’s overall condition to other pictures and in my opinion it may actually be on up there on the scale without the spots (but then again I may be way off base). Still a beautiful modern Linc. though in MHO. It would have to hit 68 to be worth sending in. Not asking for a “grade” on this post, just curious about small spots in the grading process. Thanks!

[Coinbuf]

Unfortunately there is no "formula" for how many spots it takes to drop a grade.   Your photos are as big as a dinner plate so it magnifies the imperfections and makes the spots look very horrible and massive.  In hand I suspect that these are far less impactful than they appear in the photos.  That is not to say that they would not affect the grade, they do lessen the eye appeal and should bring down the grade, how much can only be guessed at as TPG's do not have any repeatable metrics for this.  In my opinion; and from these photos; I would drop the grade to MS68 for the weak obverse strike, two hits on the obverse, and one on the reverse and another point for the spots to MS67.  In hand I might have a different assessment and how a TPG would call it I have no idea.

Edited to add:  There are a few areas in the photos where I see some color changes which could indicate possible stacking friction or it could just be how the light is reflecting, tough to say from the photos.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Coinbuf

[GBrad]

47 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Your photos are as big as a dinner plate so it magnifies the imperfections and makes the spots look very horrible and massive.

Thanks Coinbuf and Good one..... still laughing at that statement:) I can’t argue that those are definitely some large pics. The magnification does exacerbate the imperfections on the coin for sure but I wanted to give as accurate of a pic and representation of this Cent as I could. With coin in hand things are not near as obvious like you said. The info regarding the spots is good knowledge in how TPG’s approach them. You really can’t even see them with the naked eye. You answered my question about spots. Thanks! (Not to bother you, but you mentioned two hits on the obverse.... I don’t have the best vision in the world but I can’t find them. Would you mind pointing them out?) Thanks again. 

[MarkFeld]

As Coinbuf stated, there is no formula. Among the considerations, however, would be the size, location and number of spots. Then add to that, a bit of subjectivity and inconsistency.  

Based  just on the pictures you posted, the coin looks 67RD to me. But in addition to flaws already mentioned, there look to be quite a few rim ticks/hits on each side.

[GBrad]

10 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

As Coinbuf stated, there is no formula. Among the considerations, however, would be the size, location and number of spots. Then add to that, a bit of subjectivity and inconsistency.  

Based  just on the pictures you posted, the coin looks 67RD to me. But in addition to flaws already mentioned, there look to be quite a few rim ticks/hits on each side.

Thanks MarkFeld. I’m gaining here, and from research, that grading is obviously a very imperfect and subjective science. It is good to know there is not a “set” criteria for the evaluation of spots based on repeatable metrics as Coinbuf pointed out. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so to speak but yet there is no doubt a certain set of guidelines required for grading. 
Since we’re on the topic of spots and grading, there is one other question I would like to get some clarification on. I remember reading somewhere about the strength of magnification used by TPG’s once a certain MS threshold is possibly achieved.  Would you, or anyone else, mind giving an explanation, information and/or some clarification at what point they step up the examination and magnification used to grade?  Correct me if I’m wrong but I think I remember something about using the naked eye up to about MS67?? Thank you. 

[Coinbuf]

48 minutes ago, Greg Bradford said:

I don’t have the best vision in the world but I can’t find them. Would you mind pointing them out?) Thanks again. 

Sure, again the size of the photo makes these stand out more and in hand I'm sure they are somewhat less noticeable.  I've used black circles to show the hits on the protrant and a couple of the rim nicks that Mark pointed out.  Green for the color change areas which may be lighting or could be a slight stacking friction.

 

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Greg Bradford said:

Thanks MarkFeld. I’m gaining here, and from research, that grading is obviously a very imperfect and subjective science. It is good to know there is not a “set” criteria for the evaluation of spots based on repeatable metrics as Coinbuf pointed out. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so to speak but yet there is no doubt a certain set of guidelines required for grading. 
Since we’re on the topic of spots and grading, there is one other question I would like to get some clarification on. I remember reading somewhere about the strength of magnification used by TPG’s once a certain MS threshold is possibly achieved.  Would you, or anyone else, mind giving an explanation, information and/or some clarification at what point they step up the examination and magnification used to grade?  Correct me if I’m wrong but I think I remember something about using the naked eye up to about MS67?? Thank you. 

I haven’t worked as a grader since 1998 and won’t try to speak for others. As for myself, however...often, I didn’t use magnification, other times I used 5x and on rare occasions, stronger. My decisions weren’t typically based on any particular contemplated grades. But rather, they were based on factors such as the size of the coin, whether the surfaces were noticeably toned, when I was having difficulty determining whether a flaw was man-made vs. mint-made and potential value of the coin. Again, nothing approaching a formula.

[GBrad]

15 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

I haven’t worked as a grader since 1998 and won’t try to speak for others. As for myself, however...often, I didn’t use magnification, other times I used 5x and on rare occasions, stronger. My decisions weren’t typically based on any particular contemplated grades. But rather, they were based on factors such as the size of the coin, whether the surfaces were noticeably toned, when I was having difficulty determining whether a flaw was man-made vs. mint-made and potential value of the coin. Again, nothing approaching a formula.

Absolutely great info there MarkFeld. Thank you for your insight and explanation you gave.

[RWB]

RE: "...there look to be quite a few rim ticks/hits on each side."

This can be prevented by getting a flea-market and tick collar for your rolls of coins. The collars are adjustable,and will last through many coin shows -- even the AKC New York show.

[RWB]

No. Please don't take that one seriously.....

[GBrad]

5 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

Sure, again the size of the photo makes these stand out more and in hand I'm sure they are somewhat less noticeable.  I've used black circles to show the hits on the protrant and a couple of the rim nicks that Mark pointed out.  Green for the color change areas which may be lighting or could be a slight stacking friction.

 

Thank you Coinbuf for pointing out what I missed on the dings.  My pics and lighting are not the best at times but the green circled areas I believe are from the lighting I supplied. I will have to check out the coin in better detail when I get home. Thank you.  

[GBrad]

14 hours ago, RWB said:

RE: "...there look to be quite a few rim ticks/hits on each side."

This can be prevented by getting a flea-market and tick collar for your rolls of coins. The collars are adjustable,and will last through many coin shows -- even the AKC New York show.

gut ein RWB 😁

[RWB]

Danke.

[JT2]

On 12/21/2020 at 8:51 PM, RWB said:

This can be prevented by getting a flea-market and tick collar for your rolls of coins. The collars are adjustable,and will last through many coin shows -- even the AKC New York show.

Maybe instead of writing books on Peace Dollars........I think i see the next Foxworthy book coming!