From Mine to Mint 2 2

[RWB]

22 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thinking of getting the Morse Saints book (which is in hardcover) if I am sure the content is a bit different and/or there are more/different photos than the ones in your book.  I know page-wise it's 1/2 the size.

This book is a promotional publication, much like the Saint-Gaudens book prepared by Heritage alone.

[Hoghead515]

Thank you Mr Lange. I will probably purchase the Kindle.  Ill keep my eye out and if I ever see someone selling a used copy ill try my best to nab it. Looking forward to reading it. 

[Hoghead515]

One thing I was wondering about on the die making is how Philadelphia made all the dies. Did they also put the mint mark on the dies destined to the other mints? The answer may be further in the book but I wanted to stop reading for a few and make conversation here. Also if they do add the mint marks has there ever been any known mix-ups in the shipments and a die accidentally used where it shouldn't have been?  

[RWB]

56 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

One thing I was wondering about on the die making is how Philadelphia made all the dies. Did they also put the mint mark on the dies destined to the other mints? The answer may be further in the book but I wanted to stop reading for a few and make conversation here. Also if they do add the mint marks has there ever been any known mix-ups in the shipments and a die accidentally used where it shouldn't have been?  

All dies were made at the Philadelphia Mint until the late 20th century when a die shop was set up at the Denver Mint. All design masters and software to run machine tools come from Philadelphia, only

All mintmarks were applied at Philadelphia. No exceptions. No other mint was supposed to alter dies in any way except for repair and basining, but there are documented instances where a mint changed details - usually to prolong die life or to correct excessive abrasion from basining.

There are rare instances of the wrong dies being sent, but we do not have the original die records. The details and extent of misshipment are unknown.

[Just Bob]

58 minutes ago, RWB said:

. No other mint was supposed to alter dies in any way except for repair and basining, but there are documented instances where a mint changed details - usually to prolong die life or to correct excessive abrasion from basining.

 

Were the dies hardened in Philadelphia, or at the branch mints?

[GoldFinger1969]

Sometimes the other mints over-struck years and maybe mint-marks, too, right ?

Overstrike a year when it's 1 year old and you need the die...and maybe they did the same if San Francisco got Denver dies or vice-versa ? 

[RWB]

1 hour ago, Just Bob said:

Were the dies hardened in Philadelphia, or at the branch mints?

The intent was to have all die work except repair done at Philadelphia - this would ensure all dies were identical and passed Engraving Dept. examination. But San Francisco had different presses than Philadelphia and their dies were sent unhardened. Also Carson Mint received both hardened and soft dies depending on denomination and available equipment. For example, until Carson received a new Ajax large press, dollar dies were shipped soft. Once the Ajax press was in operation, the dies were hardened and tempered at Philadelphia.

[RWB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Sometimes the other mints over-struck years and maybe mint-marks, too, right ?

Overstrike a year when it's 1 year old and you need the die...and maybe they did the same if San Francisco got Denver dies or vice-versa ? 

Nope. Dated dies were destroyed at the end of each calendar year. usable non-date dies could be reused, but never at a different mint.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, RWB said:

Nope. Dated dies were destroyed at the end of each calendar year. usable non-date dies could be reused, but never at a different mint.

Then what about all those over-dates ?  You know, 9/8, etc. ?

[RWB]

After1906 all overdates are the result of using the wrong hub. For the SG 8/9 the die had one or more blows from the correct 1909 hub then a diesinker used the old 1908 hub to make another blow. Since everything else on the design was the same, the only difference visible was the date. After 1909. Engraver Barber changed the date and monogram position each year.

[Hoghead515]

Very interesting information. Now I got a better understanding. It would be bad if san francisco was waiting on dies and finally got a shipment in and they all had O or CC on them. And the other mints get the S shipment. Have any mints ever had to shut down striking over a mix-up like that? Or would they just keep striking a different denomination?

[GoldFinger1969]

7 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Very interesting information. Now I got a better understanding. It would be bad if san francisco was waiting on dies and finally got a shipment in and they all had O or CC on them. And the other mints get the S shipment. Have any mints ever had to shut down striking over a mix-up like that? Or would they just keep striking a different denomination?

I think they may have had a supply in reserve.  You could always just overuse the existing dies and suffer a loss in striking quality.  Or wait a few days and strike other coins while waiting for dies from Philly.

I suspect once you telegraphed (later phoned) Philly, even from San Francisco, you would get the dies by rail/wagon in under 2 weeks.

[RWB]

Condemned dies could not be returned to service.Once, undated master dies were sent to SF. William Barber got in hot water over that....he was already on the Director's sh-- list.

Edited January 10, 2021 by RWB

[Hoghead515]

After reading about die making id like to try and make a working set of dies sometime. It won't be nothing like what they make at the mints but I'd like to try and make them and just strike  1 or 2 tokens  with it. It would be a fun project. My son and I are in the process of building a forge to make some knives. Could probably harden in it. Find the proper metal to do it with. May try to this summer. May work out and it may not but it be fun to try. And also spend time with my kids. I got a friend with a lathe if I can just figure out what to use to strike them in. Got some hydraulics but they don't have the speed. Ill have to try and figure something out. 

[RWB]

Good temporary dies can be made with common brass rods; soft machine steel will work if you get it hardened properly. Ancient dies were attached to things that looked like tongs or ice tongs. The dies faced each other, a planchet was put between them and a workman struck the dies with a heavy hammer - maybe like a sledge hammer for large coins.

 Another way was to simply stack the dies and planchet, hold it all in place with tongs and give it a wack. These implements are shown on the following coin:

[Moneyer issues of Imperatorial Rome. T. Carisius. 46 BC. AR Denarius (18.77mm, 3.92 g, 5h). Rome mint. Head of Juno Moneta right / Implements for coining money: anvil, garlanded cap above, tongs and hammer on either side; all within laurel wreath. References: Craw., 464/2; Bab., 1 (Cited from: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/juno-moneta-die-anvil-tongs-hammer.298102/)]

Look on line for issues of The Celator. You'll find lots of information.

[Hoghead515]

24 minutes ago, RWB said:

Good temporary dies can be made with common brass rods; soft machine steel will work if you get it hardened properly. Ancient dies were attached to things that looked like tongs or ice tongs. The dies faced each other, a planchet was put between them and a workman struck the dies with a heavy hammer - maybe like a sledge hammer for large coins.

 Another way was to simply stack the dies and planchet, hold it all in place with tongs and give it a wack. These implements are shown on the following coin:

[Moneyer issues of Imperatorial Rome. T. Carisius. 46 BC. AR Denarius (18.77mm, 3.92 g, 5h). Rome mint. Head of Juno Moneta right / Implements for coining money: anvil, garlanded cap above, tongs and hammer on either side; all within laurel wreath. References: Craw., 464/2; Bab., 1 (Cited from: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/juno-moneta-die-anvil-tongs-hammer.298102/)]

Look on line for issues of The Celator. You'll find lots of information.

Thank you for the info. Ill give it a try this summer and let everyone know how the project turns out. Be a good learning experience for the kids and I both. Ill take a 14 pound sledge hammer to them. I can make a thing kinda like a cable cutter to hold the dies. Make the lower die stationary and the top die where it will raise up and down. Then give it a big whack. Ill study up the rest of the winter and get more knowledge on metal compositions.  Thank you for the info Roger. 

[Hoghead515]

[Hoghead515]

Just now, Hoghead515 said:

That is the cable cutter I was talking about. Kinda use a design something like that to hold the top die while you hit it. 

[RWB]

That will work. You have to fill the "cutting" head so your dies will fit, but that should not be a major problem. Maybe a metal rod the diameter of the bottom curve could be flattened on one side, then used as a die face....?

A small, damaged cold chisel could cut some letters -- just as a test.

[Hoghead515]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

That will work. You have to fill the "cutting" head so your dies will fit, but that should not be a major problem. Maybe a metal rod the diameter of the bottom curve could be flattened on one side, then used as a die face....?

A small, damaged cold chisel could cut some letters -- just as a test.

Sounds like a good idea. I got all kinds of stuff to build something like that. Got acetylene torches, welder, grinders, drills, etc.   Ill cobble something up. 

[RWB]

2 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

Sounds like a good idea. I got all kinds of stuff to build something like that. Got acetylene torches, welder, grinders, drills, etc.   Ill cobble something up. 

All the ancients really used were two flat dies, a piece of metal between them and something to drive them together. The cable cutter looks like a good start. a 1/4-inch thick piece of aluminum would make a good planchet.

(PS: Take photos or video. I bet members would enjoy seeing them.)

[Hoghead515]

8 minutes ago, RWB said:

All the ancients really used were two flat dies, a piece of metal between them and something to drive them together. The cable cutter looks like a good start. a 1/4-inch thick piece of aluminum would make a good planchet.

(PS: Take photos or video. I bet members would enjoy seeing them.)

I will. Ill share a video of it. Be a fun little project. 

[Hoghead515]

Something I have been wondering about. When it was time to put the denticles on the die.  It seems like a tedious process and a mistake could be made very easily. Did they first transfer the design onto another hub or die just in case a bad mistake was made before they carved the denticles?  That way they didn't lose the whole design over a messed up denticle.                                    Before the knurl machines and other technology. When they had to engrave them by hand. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Hoghead515

[RWB]

Denticles were the last part cut on a working die. As with most other parts of a die, they were likely laid out with pencil or ink before cutting. I don't know when knurling tools or markers came into mint use, but they were in normal industrial use to mark and cut gears. If you think about it, denticles are nothing more than incomplete gear teeth.

[Hoghead515]

When they canceled the dies and destroyed them was it to costly to melt them down and reuse the metal to make new dies? Or did it do something to the metal that made it unworkable for dies? 

[RWB]

14 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

When they canceled the dies and destroyed them was it to costly to melt them down and reuse the metal to make new dies? Or did it do something to the metal that made it unworkable for dies? 

Dies were usually canceled by heating them in a forge then using a hammer to obliterate the design.This was called destruction by "hammer and forge." A less common method was to heat the die to red hot then drive a chisel into the face two or more times. All this was done by the blacksmith in the presence of one or more mint officers.

The steel could not be reused by the mint. They did not have facilities for the kind of metal work necessary to produce the kind of steel needed to make dies. Die steel was bought from a very small number of companies in the form of round or square rods.

[Hoghead515]

When they were making the collars before they used the drift punch to cut the reeding. When they used a knurl. Did a worker hold the knurl as the lathe turned the collar? Or did they have it fixed to something stationary?  That seems it would be very hard to hold at a constant certain angle trying to hold it by hand. Especially if you had to put a bit of pressure on it. 

[RWB]

I suspect the collar was fixed and the knurl attached to an eccentric lathe chuck rotated inside the collar - but I've seen no specific instructions. They might have eventually used a knurl cutting tool similar to the cross-slide one shown below.

Edited January 16, 2021 by RWB

[Hoghead515]

I hope I'm not asking dumb questions. I've just been trying to picture them doing things and wondering all possibilities of how they would go about it. Thank you for all your trouble of answering my questions RWB. And others when they chime in. I really appreciate it. I have been very interested in the minting processes since I've been reading and studying about them. 

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I hope I'm not asking dumb questions. I've just been trying to picture them doing things and wondering all possibilities of how they would go about it. Thank you for all your trouble of answering my questions RWB. And others when they chime in. I really appreciate it. I have been very interested in the minting processes since I've been reading and studying about them. 

Best way to thank Roger is to plug his books.