Preferred lighting/environment for looking at problem coins? 0

[Prethen]

I have the somewhat humbling and even a bit humiliating experience of finding that I've accumulated a number of problem (mainly cleaned) coins over the years. This hapless discovery has occurred while getting a number of my coins graded that I've started to break out of my various type sets in preparation for eventual sale.

For any number of reasons, I missed this over the years. But now that I have the pleasure of having a number of coins with Details grades, I'd like to get a decent look at the surfaces to see what I've missed.

On certain coins, it has become extremely obvious (and embarrassingly so after the fact that I paid for the privilege of getting those Details grades) even without trying to get the coin in better lighting than I was already using. However, several coins are hiding their cleaning from my eyes and current lighting. I've found on the larger coins the cleaning is a bit easier to see, but on smaller coins like 3-centers it's a bit trickier. Unless the cleaning is harsh, I find I have to tilt the coin away from the light and basically get it in shadow to see that evidence, but again on smaller coins, it's very difficult to get the lighting right.

What lighting and environment should one use to best see those light patches of cleaning/tooling lines on coins? 

[GoldFinger1969]

For general coin looking, I use one of those green-shade banker lamps with an LED light (no heat). 

[Coinbuf]

Very sorry to hear of your recent disappointing grading results.  I have always found that a single 100 watt incandescent bulb is the best in one a lamp holder that has a small shade.  The shade shields my eyes from the light and allows lots of light to hit the surface as I rotate the coin looking for patches of hairlines and odd color and luster changes.

[Henri Charriere]

Am I to believe lurking about on this site as long as you have, you are completely oblivious to the hullabaloo which ensued when the heavyweight champions of the Forum debated this very topic ad nauseam with an inconclusive result as to whether incandescence was far superior to elongated fluorescent lights?  There are only a few gentlemen frequenting this site who can answer your query including Insider, Just Bob, VKurtB, RWB, and a handful of excitable types who have been warned and/or banned or destined to be so dealt who've been known to throw all caution to the wind who still might be inclined to assist you with this.  I, myself, am not smart enough to respond to your query with intelligibility.

[bsshog40]

If I really want to dissect my coins, I have a couple OTT lights and an optivisor. At 61, my eyes are getting a little weak. I invested in the optivisor when I started doing light repairs on vintage watches. But it is great for looking at coins also. 

[MarkFeld]

I can sometimes see problems (such as wheel marks and cleaning) more easily with a halogen lamp.

[Prethen]

These are great suggestions. I have tried looking at the coins under a 75W incandescent and will attempt with an LED. I do have a halogen I can experiment with.

However, I'm very curious, what do the graders use that make it so simple for them to just spend a handful of seconds trying to grade a coin when the cleaning becomes apparent to them? From what I've learned in the past (mainly ANA Summer Seminar), graders don't typically use magnification and don't spend anywhere near the time/effort I've put in with tilting a coin this way and that way, in and out of the light, etc. Is there a technique that really works best?

[MarkFeld]

11 minutes ago, Prethen said:

These are great suggestions. I have tried looking at the coins under a 75W incandescent and will attempt with an LED. I do have a halogen I can experiment with.

However, I'm very curious, what do the graders use that make it so simple for them to just spend a handful of seconds trying to grade a coin when the cleaning becomes apparent to them? From what I've learned in the past (mainly ANA Summer Seminar), graders don't typically use magnification and don't spend anywhere near the time/effort I've put in with tilting a coin this way and that way, in and out of the light, etc. Is there a technique that really works best?

Tilting and rotating the coin under a good light should do the job IF you know what you’re looking for. For example, many people mistakenly think that a cleaned coin will necessarily exhibit obvious hairlines. But based on the type of cleaning, that might not be the case.

Here are a couple of things to try...

Experiment with starting out by rotating the coin, so that you’re viewing it from the side or bottom, instead of the top, first. That can give you a different perspective and you might see things differently.

If you’re not already doing so, when you first examine a coin, view it without magnification. Get a feel for the overall look/big picture, both up close and at a distance. After you have done that, use your loupe.

If you get an opportunity, sit down with a sharp grader and review some cleaned coins together. 

.

[RWB]

Mark's suggestion is a particularly good one, just use a daylight color balanced LED light. In addition, there are certain wavelengths which will accentuate specific defects, but those are specialty uses.

[Prethen]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

If you get an opportunity, sit down with a sharp grader and review some cleaned coins together.

Mark, I'm glad you volunteered! LOL  All kidding aside, I'd love to meet up with you again one day soon.

That said, I'm going to have quite wait awhile before I have an opportunity to meet with the dealers and coin friends I used to hang with a while back and see who might be good to help out on that front.

[Prethen]

I will say that unfortunately I've let my guard down too many times which is evidenced by what I've now discovered. One coin in particular really ticks me off since I bought it from a dealer supposedly known to be a specialist in that series (it was a Capped Bust half), but, that dealer passed away within the last couple of years or so. I'm appalled that he would have pawned that off on me (at a Denver ANA show) and I'm equally appalled at myself for not being a tad more cynical at any coin coming across a dealers case.

[MarkFeld]

55 minutes ago, Prethen said:

I will say that unfortunately I've let my guard down too many times which is evidenced by what I've now discovered. One coin in particular really ticks me off since I bought it from a dealer supposedly known to be a specialist in that series (it was a Capped Bust half), but, that dealer passed away within the last couple of years or so. I'm appalled that he would have pawned that off on me (at a Denver ANA show) and I'm equally appalled at myself for not being a tad more cynical at any coin coming across a dealers case.

Maybe the coin’s better than you’re making it sound and would straight grade on another occasion?

Can you post good pictures?

[Prethen]

On 12/4/2020 at 10:47 AM, MarkFeld said:

Maybe the coin’s better than you’re making it sound and would straight grade on another occasion?

Can you post good pictures?

I will play around with lighting to see if I can get that hashwork of cleaning lines to show in photos, but I'm fairly certain that coin will never straight grade.

One thing that I should have been aware of, but failed to notice when I purchased the coin is that the "luster" on the coin that I thought was due to it being a really nice AU, was really a flat sheen. As I'm sure you're aware, that flat sheen (unless you're looking at a PL or Proof) is indicative of the microscopic luster lines being seriously disturbed. It wasn't luster, but cleaned surfaces. And, as I noted above, I'm the unfortunate owner of many examples of this now (many of which acquired when I was a much more novice/gullible collector and decades ago).

Sigh.

My next concern is how to I sell these at whatever would be "fair value". I don't want them in my collection anymore but I also don't want to just give them away. In upcoming weeks I will try to get pictures of multiple examples and maybe create a different thread.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Prethen

[Prethen]

Here is the Bust Half that I noted (paid $340). I did not get photos showing the flat sheen of the coin to show it's "luster". However, at least on the obverse on one side of the coin, you can see the obvious cleaning the coin got. The reverse shows its abuse fairly well in the slab picture.

I can hear some of you saying, "How the heck did you miss that when you were at the dealer's table?" I really don't know. I think it was a combination of things including trusting this dealer's expertise, it looked like it was a lustrous AU, finding a coin that I needed for my type set, and just the general ANA show excitement. And now this is just one of the coins I absolutely wish to part with and wonder just how much I got soaked.

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Prethen

[MarkFeld]

If I saw pictures of the coin out of a holder and didn’t know its history, my guess is that I’d opine AU details, possibly cleaned. I’ve seen far worse. 

[Prethen]

Mark, you infer a very interesting point and one I'm struggling with ever since I got the grades back and before the coin was back in my hands and I still struggle with on various slabs now. Are there coins that I break out and not let the Details graded slabs be a flashing warning sign to buyers and have an automatic negative affect/appeal and kill the pricing? Before I got this coin back in my hands, I thought that I had to break it out since how could the cleaning be that bad as for to miss it and for that dealer to pawn it off on me as market acceptable? Well, once it was back in hand, it became obvious that no knowledgeable collector (again, I insult myself here) should miss what's happening with the coin in a proper lighting and the pricing will be affected as such, so it would be pointless to break it out.

I have no intention (and I know you didn't infer that I would) to "put one over" on someone I will be trying to sell these not-so-market-acceptable coins to, however, I also don't wish to blatantly destroy the pricing. I've lost a bit of sleep on this, trying to figure out, how do I move such coins in a fair manner (to me and the buyer)? If the coin is details for obvious reason, I'm currently intending to leave them in the holder. I do have an example or two, where the issue is not quite so problematic/obvious (and where one might argue about market acceptability) and I will likely break the coins out (again not to cheat anyone, because I would have every intention of letting the buyer examine any coin closely).

As far as pricing goes, when a coin is in Details holder and not for "extreme" reasons (like whizzing, tooling out devices, major scratch, etc), what type of pricing might I expect? Would the coin automatically fall to 50% of the price it would be at the grade or maybe a full grade level (i.e. AU => EF) worth of pricing? There are cases I've seen where pricing barely moves between grade levels and pricing such a coin might be a bit more interesting.

 

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Prethen said:

Mark, you infer a very interesting point and one I'm struggling with ever since I got the grades back and before the coin was back in my hands and I still struggle with on various slabs now. Are there coins that I break out and not let the Details graded slabs be a flashing warning sign to buyers and have an automatic negative affect/appeal and kill the pricing? Before I got this coin back in my hands, I thought that I had to break it out since how could the cleaning be that bad as for to miss it and for that dealer to pawn it off on me as market acceptable? Well, once it was back in hand, it became obvious that no knowledgeable collector (again, I insult myself here) should miss what's happening with the coin in a proper lighting and the pricing will be affected as such, so it would be pointless to break it out.

I have no intention (and I know you didn't infer that I would) to "put one over" on someone I will be trying to sell these not-so-market-acceptable coins to, however, I also don't wish to blatantly destroy the pricing. I've lost a bit of sleep on this, trying to figure out, how do I move such coins in a fair manner (to me and the buyer)? If the coin is details for obvious reason, I'm currently intending to leave them in the holder. I do have an example or two, where the issue is not quite so problematic/obvious (and where one might argue about market acceptability) and I will likely break the coins out (again not to cheat anyone, because I would have every intention of letting the buyer examine any coin closely).

As far as pricing goes, when a coin is in Details holder and not for "extreme" reasons (like whizzing, tooling out devices, major scratch, etc), what type of pricing might I expect? Would the coin automatically fall to 50% of the price it would be at the grade or maybe a full grade level (i.e. AU => EF) worth of pricing? There are cases I've seen where pricing barely moves between grade levels and pricing such a coin might be a bit more interesting.

 

If I owned the coin, I’d leave it in the holder, place it in an auction at no reserve (and possibly a conservative minimum opening bid) and hope for the best. If you list it on EBay, you could note in the description that you bought it from a reputable seller as a problem-free example. 

if you check auction archives, you should be able to find results for AU details, cleaned examples of that and/or other dates of similar value.

I realize that yours is a Curl Base 2, but here are two sales of Square Base 2 examples, from this year:

•  

  Auction 132043 | Lot 25787 » Half Dollars » Bust Half Dollars 

  1828 50C Square Base 2, Small 8s, Large Letters, -- Cleaning -- PCGS Genuine. AU Details.
  From The Maltese Collectio...(PCGS# 6151) 

  Bid Source: HA.com/Live

  SERVICEPCGS Genuine

   

  GRADEAU50

  AUCTION ENDED

  Oct 20, 2020 
  Auction Archives

  Sold For:  $192.00

   
•  

  Auction 132026 | Lot 27157 » Half Dollars » Bust Half Dollars 

  1828 50C Square Base 2, Small 8s, Large Letters, -- Cleaning -- PCGS Genuine. AU Details. ...(PCGS# 6151) 

  Bid Source: Internet

  SERVICEPCGS Genuine

   

  GRADEAU50

  AUCTION ENDED

  Jun 23, 2020 
  Auction Archives

  Sold For:  $312.00

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by MarkFeld

[numisport]

On 12/4/2020 at 8:59 AM, MarkFeld said:

Tilting and rotating the coin under a good light should do the job IF you know what you’re looking for. For example, many people mistakenly think that a cleaned coin will necessarily exhibit obvious hairlines. But based on the type of cleaning, that might not be the case.

Here are a couple of things to try...

Experiment with starting out by rotating the coin, so that you’re viewing it from the side or bottom, instead of the top, first. That can give you a different perspective and you might see things differently.

If you’re not already doing so, when you first examine a coin, view it without magnification. Get a feel for the overall look/big picture, both up close and at a distance. After you have done that, use your loupe.

If you get an opportunity, sit down with a sharp grader and review some cleaned coins together. 

.

Would you agree though that most details graded coins labeled cleaned would have hairlines usually visible. If not they would probably get a straight grade even though they have been dipped.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, numisport said:

Would you agree though that most details graded coins labeled cleaned would have hairlines usually visible. If not they would probably get a straight grade even though they have been dipped.

Most? Yes. But there are still many others that do not.

[Insider]

On 12/4/2020 at 8:37 AM, Prethen said:

These are great suggestions. I have tried looking at the coins under a 75W incandescent and will attempt with an LED. I do have a halogen I can experiment with.

However, I'm very curious, what do the graders use that make it so simple for them to just spend a handful of seconds trying to grade a coin when the cleaning becomes apparent to them? From what I've learned in the past (mainly ANA Summer Seminar), graders don't typically use magnification and don't spend anywhere near the time/effort I've put in with tilting a coin this way and that way, in and out of the light, etc. Is there a technique that really works best?

IMHO, an experienced numismatist/professional grader/successful major dealer, knowledgeable collector, etc. can detect a coin that is not in original condition from at least 8 inches away while still in a flip using their eyes alone.  The key for me in order of importance is color, luster type (a polished coin has luster - the reflection of light from its surface - just not original Mint luster), and the pattern of the luster (halo effect). 

When the coin is removed from the flip and examined more closely, parallel hairlines may be present when the coin is tipped and rotated in the correct orientation of light that makes them visible. The condition of a surface w/o hairlines is an indication of chemical cleaning.

Then you need to decide if the imperfections you see are "Market Acceptable."   

[Prethen]

2 hours ago, Insider said:

Then you need to decide if the imperfections you see are "Market Acceptable." 

This is the thing that really causes me a lot of concern/thought. If I think it really doesn't belong in a Details holder (perhaps the signs of cleaning are not that bad/obvious/problematic for the overall appearance) because that would doom the coin to be decisively discounted, then I need to break it out. But then I don't wish to give the appearance I'm trying to "put one over" on anyone. If I'm going to point out the hairlines/whatever, then I might as well leave it in the holder and suffer the subsequent pricing.

That said, one of my recent Details grades is of a coin that the only signs of cleaning I can find appear to be an obverse "wipe" going from the left field onto the device. I think I've gone crosseyed looking for more evidence of that coin being a problem. However, I will say the cheek of the liberty head (3CN) is a bit shiny so that might have clued the grader in that something was not quite right in the first place.

[RWB]

Some find that using a very small - point source - light helps accentuate the effects of cleaning and surface alteration.

[Insider]

4 hours ago, Prethen said:

This is the thing that really causes me a lot of concern/thought. If I think it really doesn't belong in a Details holder (perhaps the signs of cleaning are not that bad/obvious/problematic for the overall appearance) because that would doom the coin to be decisively discounted, then I need to break it out. But then I don't wish to give the appearance I'm trying to "put one over" on anyone. If I'm going to point out the hairlines/whatever, then I might as well leave it in the holder and suffer the subsequent pricing.

That said, one of my recent Details grades is of a coin that the only signs of cleaning I can find appear to be an obverse "wipe" going from the left field onto the device. I think I've gone crosseyed looking for more evidence of that coin being a problem. However, I will say the cheek of the liberty head (3CN) is a bit shiny so that might have clued the grader in that something was not quite right in the first place.

I find that the TPGS try to straight grade as many coins as they can.  Therefore, it would be an extremely rare occurrence for a normal coin to be detailed.  If the TPGS puts a some problem on the label, its on the coin.  IMO, the ONLY time a collector is morally obligated to point out defects on a coin is when they sell it to a NON-DEALER.    

"Market acceptable" is different for every single person.  Finalizers at the TPGS attempt to keep the "line" the same for everyone and every coin.  The problem started for all collectors long ago when coin dealers snatched the grading process from non-dealer numismatists who had no "skin" in the game.  The numismatists just graded coins as they saw them at a time when grading was much more strict.  The truth is, both the dealers and the numismatists were doing things correctly.   Graders were ranking coins by their degree of preservation but that way of doing things was contrary to the way long-time successful business dealers who did have their "skin" on the line.  They knew the market and controlled it.  Image how you would feel if you paid $1000 for a Mint state coin and several of your peers would give you an immediate profit yet when your customer sent it in to be graded it came back valued much lower because the numismatists in their "Ivory Tower" had no idea of the "Real World." 

News flash:  I will tell every collector to learn to grade.   While you are learning, get your coin out of a details holder.  When you sell it to a dealer, it is up to them to know the value of the coin as is.   Many dealers try to "put-one-over" on the TPGS's.  That's what makes things fun.  When NGC rejects their coins they get sent to us.  It's like stealing money but they continue to try to get the coin slabbed. 

 

      

[MarkFeld]

9 hours ago, Insider said:

I find that the TPGS try to straight grade as many coins as they can.  Therefore, it would be an extremely rare occurrence for a normal coin to be detailed.  If the TPGS puts a some problem on the label, its on the coin.  IMO, the ONLY time a collector is morally obligated to point out defects on a coin is when they sell it to a NON-DEALER.    

"Market acceptable" is different for every single person.  Finalizers at the TPGS attempt to keep the "line" the same for everyone and every coin.  The problem started for all collectors long ago when coin dealers snatched the grading process from non-dealer numismatists who had no "skin" in the game.  The numismatists just graded coins as they saw them at a time when grading was much more strict.  The truth is, both the dealers and the numismatists were doing things correctly.   Graders were ranking coins by their degree of preservation but that way of doing things was contrary to the way long-time successful business dealers who did have their "skin" on the line.  They knew the market and controlled it.  Image how you would feel if you paid $1000 for a Mint state coin and several of your peers would give you an immediate profit yet when your customer sent it in to be graded it came back valued much lower because the numismatists in their "Ivory Tower" had no idea of the "Real World." 

News flash:  I will tell every collector to learn to grade.   While you are learning, get your coin out of a details holder.  When you sell it to a dealer, it is up to them to know the value of the coin as is.   Many dealers try to "put-one-over" on the TPGS's.  That's what makes things fun.  When NGC rejects their coins they get sent to us.  It's like stealing money but they continue to try to get the coin slabbed. 

 

      

I believe he already saw the coin out of its holder. And at this point, he should leave it as is and dispose of it, without fretting about it further or rationalizing that maybe it’s not a problem coin.

Edited December 8, 2020 by MarkFeld