The State Of Coin Collecting: Strong, Weak, or Something Else ? 0

[VKurtB]

53 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

(1)  The tax treatment of gold IRAs is not a big thing....it's an aracane tax issue.  This is NOT like some boiler room having senior citizens buying $50 Morgan dollars for $200.

(2)  States have different laws on sales tax.  Again, if that's the worst, I have no problem with it -- just a business/hobby looking out for their own interests.  In this case, getting the greedy hands of government off something that is NOT "income" as defined by the 16th Amendment.  We used to have an Internet sales tax exemption, no more.  Maybe when dealers are as wealthy as Jeff Bezos....

(3)   As a Board Member of my local astronomy club, I feel it is my duty to inform you that you need a critical mass of coin dealers, er solar masses, to collapse into a white dwarf or neutron star or black hole.   The success of Heritage, Great Collections, and Ebay says that the coin business is holding up and re-inventing itself.  I wager that overall silver and gold bullion ownership rates are higher than in the 1970's and 1980's....and pure coin collecting is holding up too.  Quasi-bullion (silver and gold) quasi-numismatic appears to be the growth area (Saints, Morgan,s Mint products, etc.).

You wouldn’t believe that if you had experienced the status quo ante. The previous market was faaaaaaaaar hotter than now. Even Saints and Morgan’s are moribund compared to not that many years ago. But believe me, whether YOU think it’s critical or not, TRUST ME, the major gold dealers are fully OBSESSED with gold IRA’s. It’s almost all they think about.  It’s their ONLY market saving larger gold coins from a market collapse of epic proportions, and they fully know it.

Edited November 21, 2020 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

I think they see the IRAs as many folks largest pool of investable assets and they want to get some of that $$$ for PM's.    Hopefully, there's a limit on how much gold one can own in an IRA.  There should be.  I'm not in favor of reckless investing but ultimately the owners of the IRAs have to be responsible (and I don't think any/most of these coin dealers can handle IRA assets).

I guess as someone who is NOT as intimately involved in the hobby as some of you I don't see all the warts in the industry.  Noted....but I think anybody focused 24/7 on one specific area can find lots of bad things.  I also see thriving message boards....helpful dealers....great coin shows....honest and helpful local coin shops.....interesting modern and classic U.S. bullion and numismatic coins.

My biggest problem is figuring out where to invest my budgeted $$$. 

[VKurtB]

11 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

  Hopefully, there's a limit on how much gold one can own in an IRA. 

There isn’t.

[VKurtB]

11 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I guess as someone who is NOT as intimately involved in the hobby as some of you I don't see all the warts in the industry.  Noted..

Confirmed. The hobby has as many warts as flat heathy skin. You are an enthusiast’s enthusiast, and that is a little bit dangerous, IMO.

[GoldFinger1969]

39 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

There isn’t.

Then the owner of an IRA -- or the Trustee who holds the assets and is technically "the owner" -- has to excercise discretion.

Ultimately, investing it in gold bullion or Vancouver penny stocks is in your control.

[numisport]

On 11/6/2020 at 2:13 AM, MorganMan said:

I'll just say this. While my dad and both loved collecting coins over the years, absolutely NO ONE in my family is interested in coins at all.  I am at the point in my life where I know that if I die, my collection will be sold for pennies on the dollar by my heirs.

I am seriously thinking of selling my collection at this point in my life (65 years old) and just having fun with the proceeds. I am having a hard time deciding what to do.

Very sad.

I've instructed my family to submit my graded coins to Great Collections where commissions are low (zero over 1000.00). Also in recent auctions the Morgans I bid on seem to sell for more than FMV with a CAC sticker but don't be too quick to sell unless you really need the money.

[VKurtB]

27 minutes ago, numisport said:

I've instructed my family to submit my graded coins to Great Collections where commissions are low (zero over 1000.00). Also in recent auctions the Morgans I bid on seem to sell for more than FMV with a CAC sticker but don't be too quick to sell unless you really need the money.

Being in a hurry is always your natural enemy. 

[GoldFinger1969]

There is so much information on the Internet and from auction sites that it is relatively easy to get FMV or something close to it if heirs have to sell coins that they have no expertise in.

I'm not an expert in real estate in Florida, Wyoming, or California...but if I inherited a house in any of those states, I'd know the approximate market value within a few hours.

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

There is so much information on the Internet and from auction sites that it is relatively easy to get FMV or something close to it if heirs have to sell coins that they have no expertise in.

I'm not an expert in real estate in Florida, Wyoming, or California...but if I inherited a house in any of those states, I'd know the approximate market value within a few hours.

Sure you would. Guess why that is. A government has a pecuniary interest in informing you of things that affect their ability to get a tax revenue stream from you.

Pretty cynical for a government employee, huh? It’s because I understand the mindset. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Then the owner of an IRA -- or the Trustee who holds the assets and is technically "the owner" -- has to excercise discretion.

Ultimately, investing it in gold bullion or Vancouver penny stocks is in your control.

The worst offense is these guys, and there are literally DOZENS of major firms offering this snake oil, who are promoting the idea of metals IRA’s WITHOUT any Trustee, but instead held by the beneficiary. Of course it’s ridiculous on its face, but they still sell the idea brazenly. It should be a stinking CRIME. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

12 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

The worst offense is these guys, and there are literally DOZENS of major firms offering this snake oil, who are promoting the idea of metals IRA’s WITHOUT any Trustee, but instead held by the beneficiary. Of course it’s ridiculous on its face, but they still sell the idea brazenly. It should be a stinking CRIME. 

If the assets are held by someone who is not vetted/audited, problems can occur.  That's how Madoff happened:  the trustee for the assets was Madoff himself, self-custodian.

I'm sure some of those folks you reference are scuzzy.....I can see them convincing anti-central bankers and apocalyptic types that they should put a big chunk or 100% or even use levearge to max out on gold.

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If the assets are held by someone who is not vetted/audited, problems can occur.  That's how Madoff happened:  the trustee for the assets was Madoff himself, self-custodian.

I'm sure some of those folks you reference are scuzzy.....I can see them convincing anti-central bankers and apocalyptic types that they should put a big chunk or 100% or even use levearge to max out on gold.

The problem is that MAINSTREAM gold dealers and coin dealers, regular ones who take tables at major coin shows, even at the ANA, actively hawk these illegal self-held IRA schemes. Some are among the most respected names in the field, but they SHOULD NOT BE. We’re talking major mainstream gold dealers with big reputations. 
 

And you are correct. They tend to be huge Fed critics who frighten people with bogus inflation fears based on the M2 money supply. My degree is in economics. People say that inflation is caused by too much money printing, but that is untrue. Inflation is caused by too much INCOME (not “money”) chasing too few goods. There hasn’t been too much INCOME in the mainstream economy since the early 1980’s. In fact, there isn’t ENOUGH income, hence we remain on the precipice of DEFLATION, in spite of money “printing”. In short, William Devane is a liar.

Edited November 21, 2020 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

And you are correct. They tend to be huge Fed critics who frighten people with bogus inflation fears based on the M2 money supply. My degree is in economics. People say that inflation is caused by too much money printing, but that is untrue. Inflation is caused by too much INCOME (not “money”) chasing too few goods. There hasn’t been oo much INCOME in the mainstream economy since the early 1980’s. In fact, there isn’t ENOUGH income, hence we remain on the precipice of DEFLATION, in spite of money “printing”. In short, William Devane is a liar.

My 1st job out of college was as a Fed Watcher, watching the Thursday 4:30 PM release of the monetary aggregates.

Bill Devane is just a spokesman, I have no problem with his Roslyn Capital ads.  Maybe that's because I used to work in Roslyn, Long Island.   Good actor !!

Caveat Emptor !!

Edited November 21, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

My 1st job out of college was as a Fed Watcher, watching the Thursday 4:30 PM release of the monetary aggregates.

Bill Devane is just a spokesman, I have no problem with his Roslyn Capital ads.  Maybe that's because I used to work in Roslyn, Long Island.   Good actor !!

Caveat Emptor !!

The “best” one is the fact that Devane plays the role of some über-patriot in Rosland’s ads and he never really served, DESPITE being in the Nam draft era.

[GoldFinger1969]

(1)  Has anybody been to the Central States Show recently...and how does dealer numbers and public attendance stack-up vs. decades ago ?

(2)  Ditto for the annual ANA gathering (I believe it's usually in the Midwest ?  Chicago ?) ?

 

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

(1)  Has anybody been to the Central States Show recently...and how does dealer numbers and public attendance stack-up vs. decades ago ?

(2)  Ditto for the annual ANA gathering (I believe it's usually in the Midwest ?  Chicago ?) ?

 

ANA so far has never failed to sell out the available bourse space, but fewer and fewer dealers are being turned away. What used to be a “seller’s market” for bourse space is now a struggle to get fully subscribed. Central States is reportedly shrinking fast. I do not personally know, never having been to one.

[GoldFinger1969]

57 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

ANA so far has never failed to sell out the available bourse space, but fewer and fewer dealers are being turned away. What used to be a “seller’s market” for bourse space is now a struggle to get fully subscribed. Central States is reportedly shrinking fast. I do not personally know, never having been to one.

Thanks Kurt....I think I saw that Central States has shrunk from maybe 400 dealers to about 1/3rd or less, but don't quote me.

My understanding was that The Big 3 were ANA, Long Beach, and FUN....the others right behind like CS, Whitman Baltimore, and Bay State were all Big Regionals, trailing right behind The Big 3.

[VKurtB]

58 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thanks Kurt....I think I saw that Central States has shrunk from maybe 400 dealers to about 1/3rd or less, but don't quote me.

My understanding was that The Big 3 were ANA, Long Beach, and FUN....the others right behind like CS, Whitman Baltimore, and Bay State were all Big Regionals, trailing right behind The Big 3.

Whitman shows in Baltimore fill the space, but the bugaboo there is how the dealers clear out seriously early. You really need to go to Whitman shows on Friday. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

There is a completely serious proposal to make Rosemont the exclusive site of the August ANA show, and let the early spring one move around, starting in 2024. If that happens, Central States may fade away. Both are heavily dependent on Chicago Coin Club for volunteers. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

6 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Whitman shows in Baltimore fill the space, but the bugaboo there is how the dealers clear out seriously early. You really need to go to Whitman shows on Friday. 

I've been planning to attend, and I can make the drive from my parents both ways in 1 day, so no need to stay overnight in beautiful downtown Baltimore. 

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I've been planning to attend, and I can make the drive from my parents both ways in 1 day, so no need to stay overnight in beautiful downtown Baltimore. 

Baltimore does have some nice and inexpensive hotels, though. Walking distance to the expo center. The best parking rate is a lot just a block and a half north of the show, middle of the expo hall. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

And so in the last few weeks we have a couple of investment firms buying Collectors Universe (CLCT) for 5-times the price a year ago (probably for the collectibles business) and this BARRON'S piece on investing in artworks:

https://www.barrons.com/articles/investing-in-art-looks-profitable-on-paperbut-looks-can-be-deceiving-51605914355