blast white My deepest fear when it comes to coin collecting 0

[silverdrag'n]

There are so many offers available online for supposedly good coins and the sellers use some words
that immediately bring up red danger flags. One of the terms that doe it for me is "blast white." Other
terms are gem, brilliant white, shinny, glistening, and not to mention the obvious => cleaned.

Yet and still, many of these sellers will go to an extent to hide the true condition of their items up for sale.
Since it is so easy to produce good fair-to-middling images even with an inexpensive smart phone
and they resort to providing badly focused photos of their coins. I look at the pictures and I wonder
"What's up with this? \Why is this seller providing such low quality images for his coins?" The only reason
is that the seller is hiding something.

Another item is when sellers offer a  full uncirculated roll but mention that the end coins are some very
desirable dates and perhaps mints. I shy away from those offers because I'm sure the seller knows that 
the roll is NOT uncirculated and there are folks that can use and old empty coin roll and repack it with 
their choice of coins to fool the buyer into thinking the middle of the roll will have coins as valuable as the
end pieces. 99% of the time nothing could be further from the truth!

I encourage all to participate and value your experience and opinion. In the few short weeks I've been
engaged in this hobby I've learned a lot and i want to learn more. 
  

[JKK]

The biggest problem with online is the tuition involved in sorting out which dealers are reliable to work with. This is why brick and mortar coin shops still exist. Wherever I live, I need to find the best local coin shop and build a good business relationship with the dealer. I buy almost no coins online and I'm not in any hurry to change that.

[silverdrag'n]

I tried to build a relationship with a local coin dealer a few months ago and was not too pleased with the outcome.
I was looking to purchase junk silver and I realized the guy was charging me an astronomical premium above spot price,
about 32% above. This exchange happened over the phone. I remember the coin dealer getting hot headed when I
questioned  the high premium.

I let him know that I wasn't interested in his attitude and went elsewhere and found a dealer that was only going to charge
me a premium of about 12% (and I thought that was high as well) I'm sure that if I ever offered any coins for sale to the two
above individuals they would offer me a pittance for my coins. 

My  experience with the two dealers above has cemented a distaste to ever walk into any coin shop since I'd rather be 
treated in an honest manner and that is not what I found on the local level. Even more, once they realize you are a newbie
they show no reservations about treating you very badly. Count me as: twice bitten and twice shy!

Edited October 31, 2020 by silverdrag'n
mistake

[RonnieR131]

I agree with the poor pics and then the descriptions that are overdone, you can't help but think it's deception. One term that throws up the red flag for me personally, though it's not always true, is the word 'rare', or 'very rare' in the description. Ebay is legitimate, but not for me, too risky. Why chance the disappointment and then the hassle of correcting the bad situation, when, as JKK says, there's a good brick and mortar coin shop nearby. A GOOD relationship with the dealer to boot, your good to go. 

[silverdrag'n]

I do a lot of online buying but I take my time and don't get excited. I pick apart their offering and ask all the questions.
If it takes me a few days to ascertain the bona-fide character of the offer and I feel good about it, then i go ahead and
do it. If at any point they don't have an honest reply to a simple request, like: Can you provide better pictures for me? or, 
they can't account for the coin's provenance, I go elsewhere. 

As a tool to help me with my buying decision I use Photoshop to make a composite full view of their offering and then 
apply a range of filters that bring out details they were hiding, I've been using the application for a long time and consider
myself an expert. Believe me, it sure helps when you can see what  they were hoping to keep in the dark.  
 

Edited October 31, 2020 by silverdrag'n
left content out

[silverdrag'n]

28 minutes ago, ronnie stein said:

I agree with the poor pics and then the descriptions that are overdone, you can't help but think it's deception. One term that throws up the red flag for me personally, though it's not always true, is the word 'rare', or 'very rare' in the description. Ebay is legitimate, but not for me, too risky. Why chance the disappointment and then the hassle of correcting the bad situation, when, as JKK says, there's a good brick and mortar coin shop nearby. A GOOD relationship with the dealer to boot, your good to go. 

Yes! That is one of the terms I've noticed as well and it sends me into a frenzy of anxiety. Danger ahead Mr. Robinson, danger!

Edited October 31, 2020 by silverdrag'n
left content out

[scopru]

3 hours ago, silverdrag'n said:

My  experience with the two dealers above has cemented a distaste to ever walk into any coin shop since I'd rather be 
treated in an honest manner and that is not what I found on the local level.

That is too bad to hear.  I had a similar experience with one local where I am at and very different experience with 2 others.  Basically one treated me as if I had the plague and the other 2 treated me like family.  A good brick and mortar is always a joy to go into and see and hold what I may be interested in purchasing.  I do shop online as well. 

[RWB]

Your experiences are consistent with those of collectors not just of coins but anything. One wag commented "There are more crooks selling coins than in a pretzel factory." Some find a handful of dealers they trust, others go to coin shows where there are many sellers and they can compare prices on bullion and other bulk materials. The OP's observations are good ones and the caution expressed is entirely justified and reasonable. The best sellers are those who include knowledge and expertise with their coins - that is, they are not in business solely for the money: they talk, they listen, they help, they encourage.

A few general thoughts:

• Anyone selling on TV or cable is ripping off buyers.
• Any coin sold in a mass mailing is a ripoff.
• Any coin sold in a general circulation newspaper ad is a ripoff.
• Anyone buying at a hotel is ripping off sellers.

[Alex in PA.]

I have been very fortunate over the years to have developed a good relationship with two nationally known dealers that I have come to trust.  These are people who have decades in the business and who I feel are completely trust worthy.

I have NOT bought from EBay in many years with the exception of a few miscellaneous inexpensive coins.  EBay, in my opinion, has become a junk yard of low quality coins being sold at high prices.   No matter how you choose to buy - good luck to you.

[JKK]

So if two of your local coin dealers sucked, that's how you winnow them out. However, I would point out that bullion dealing and rare coin dealing are two different businesses. I agree that what you describe is a bad attitude and reflects poorly on anyone's business, but I've also been the one answering that phone. There are two main categories of people who call in to the coin store: bullion buyers and coin buyers. (Of course, some people do both.) It gets wearisome having the bullion people grumble over the premium and tell you they can get it cheaper somewhere else. The whole thing is purely commodity and not very profitable, and some dealers do it only because they are expected to--and figure if they are going to do it, they should get a decent profit as they reckon it. None of that excuses poor attitudes or customer service, but it might explain them. Plus, the bullion people often come in and want to talk politics or evangelize about their predictions for the future, and it's like being the bartender--you're stuck with them and their pontifications.

Another problem is that an alarming percentage of coin dealers are socially dysfunctional. When someone recommends a dealer to me I ask: "Okay, so how autistic is he?" It would be wonderful if we could combine good attitudes with certain professions, but there's a significant personality problem in the coin dealership world. If you can't tolerate that, I don't fault you, but it does limit the options.

I stand by what I said, which is that it's worth finding a good local dealer. If those two are the only ones in town or nearby, then I guess that's that. In those cases there are usually coin shows. There is also probably a local coin club where people will know who's good to deal with and may even have an informal bourse or annual show (ours has both; the bourse is during the social hour, at least when we are meeting in person rather than on zoom). Many dealers only do shows and by appointment, so you would not find them except by meeting them at a show and evaluating them there. That's how our local primary ancients dealer is.

[Coinbuf]

Building a good relationship with a B&M store takes time, you have to commit some time to go the store and talk to the owner and develop that connection, however you will not always be successful as no one is able to hit it off with everyone.  If you cannot find a local brick and mortar store that you can develop a good relationship with then finding a local coin club or show is your next best option.  A club can provide you with some connections that may lead to better dealers and/or dealing with other collectors directly.  A coin show both small local shows or large national shows will allow you to view much more inventory in one place and again develop relationships.

On-line buying is much the same, buying at random is like a russian roulette game, its just a mater of time before you get burned.  You need to seek out the dealers that sell the good coins not the cheap coins that have issues.  The only way to do that is to put in the work and look at lots of sites, reach out and make contact with those that look good and ask questions.  Make sure the dealer offers a return option.  If you have a particular area of interest, say Lincoln cents, or Buffalo nickels, try and find collectors that share your interest and see who they buy from.

Its not rocket science, you have to do the work and build the relationships which takes time.

[Revenant]

11 hours ago, silverdrag'n said:

about 32% above. This exchange happened over the phone. I remember the coin dealer getting hot headed when I
questioned  the high premium.

When did you do this? Premiums on low weight (1-10 oz especially) Silver and Gold have been insane since March. 30% premiums would have been pretty out of line in 2019 but have been quite common in 2020 - even with major dealers. But lots of silver bugs have been complaining about it and I wouldn't be surprised if many a LCS has lost patience with the grumbling. I wouldn't necessarily write someone off for this right now. You start off on the wrong foot with people sometimes. Just 2 cents. 

[silverdrag'n]

At the time I was purchasing $100 face value junk silver so I was willing to buy more than a very modest amount. Later on, online, I was able to acquire junk silver for a very modest 3% premium. The thing that gets me about the local dealers is that they are too willing to stick it to you when selling AND buying.

I have made some good relationships through eBay and feel fortunate for that achievement. Matter of fact, earlier today I  received an order for 12 each Peace dollars that were posted as BU and upon looking at them I could tell that that's exactly what they were. They were in pristine condition and I could tell they had never, ever, been circulated. When I first met the seller I purchased one Peace dollar to see the quality. Once it came in, and I confirmed its bona-fide condition, I turned around and ordered 12 more and was not disappointed. They are beautiful coins with no traces of ever having been circulated and I think some of them could grade out to be MS.  

[Just Bob]

6 minutes ago, silverdrag'n said:

At the time I was purchasing $100 face value junk silver so I was willing to buy more than a very modest amount. Later on, online, I was able to acquire junk silver for a very modest 3% premium. 

Did that price include shipping?

[silverdrag'n]

Yes, matter of fact it did.

[silverdrag'n]

14 hours ago, scopru said:

That is too bad to hear.  I had a similar experience with one local where I am at and very different experience with 2 others.  Basically one treated me as if I had the plague and the other 2 treated me like family.  A good brick and mortar is always a joy to go into and see and hold what I may be interested in purchasing.  I do shop online as well. 

I couldn't agree with you more, a good local dealer is a fine asset to find. Many dealers tend to forget that the new customer in the shop could be a long-term asset they should cultivate for mutual benefit, not just for "let's stick it to him because we've never seen Joe Blow before and he can't be of consequence." 

The gist of a good interaction, businesswise, is to forget about the momentary gain and strive to build a long-term relationship. I know, in my professional life I offered the corporate development services to take promising companies on to the capital markets, be it the NYSE, NASDAQ, AMEX, OTCBB and the Pink Sheets. Knowing how expensive our services were, I put talk of sales way in the back burner and dedicated my time to listening to my prospective clients because spending a few million dollars on an IPO is a big move for any up-and-coming company. 

The long-term care and utter reliability of my caring and "kid gloves" approach paid off handsomely because they could tell I was honestly interested in the success of their business.

After this, the sales rolled in on their own. 

[JKK]

Editing is the same way. The first thing I ask a prospective client is whether it's a commercial or a vanity project. I'm happy enough to work on either, but what would be unpardonable would be to string someone along thinking that my services would help make them money when they are not doing the other things necessary for that to be probable. While some clients can't handle that level of candor, others take it as a sign I want them to succeed and to feel good about what they might spend on my services.

[silverdrag'n]

Exactly, the best way to provide for clients is to make sure what you can offer them is the best for their needs since it's the epitome of looking after or clients.

It may not be want they want to hear but they will thank you in the long run.  

[RonnieR131]

My comments above about Ebay, personally 'not for me', was meant about Buying only. I recently sold through Heritage Auctions again, but this time I took a $300 hit there and a $800 hit here and $200 there, not that much, but it all adds up to a good loss. It was also my presumption from the start that they would sell on the 'low' end plus buyers fee, but 'whew', they did. I learned, the hard way, so many unforeseens. One coin in particular was grouped in with so many high end expensive coins, that when mine went to the live floor auction that weekend, it was one of the first auctioned, from 1 pm to 3 pm on Friday. A lot of people still at work, couldn't bid, no exposure, etc. I don't hold it against HA, it was just my ignorance of the different scenarios that could happen. Hindsight, Ebay, with a little Patience, would've been the better choice to Sell. (Great Collections, etc. seem to sit in limbo, stagnant for longer periods) Just my opinion on buying and selling. (for now)    

[rocket23]

One point that was brought up was detail or lack of detail with pictures from a seller ,being a ''tip off'' for a rip off....A lot of sellers on Ebay just post coins quick to sell and try and make a profit. Not really taking into account whether they are actually posting quality pix. A number of sellers are just hobbying for lack of a better term and do not live and breathe coins. This is where the feedback score is worth a look......the more transactions the better 100% rating even better..........I look the other way at 98% or worse.....If I do anything with the big auction houses it will be in person. Only coin shops around where I live are pawn brokers and we all know they may be friendly until the subject of price is brought up.

[silverdrag'n]

I guess the local shops have to make a living and their procing policies reflect that. If I am purchasing a coin and the need for outstanding quality is not a consideration, or acquiring junk silver, then eBay is my go to location. Many rimes I can buy junk silver at a very modest premium above spot and free shipping. How can you beat that?

Now, buying some of the better coins, say anything MS, is a trickier proposition. On the brighter side there are many eBay sellers that have never taken the time to really check out the provenance of a given coin and you will get a huge surprise when you order. Matter of fact, I just received a 1024 P Peace dollar that had been promoted as a BU. Upon closer inspection I could tell that the coin had, in fact, never, ever, been circulated. I then used PCGS's Photograde to compare the state of the coin and I received a very pleasant surprise, more like a jolt! !It appears the coin could be an MS67 and perhaps even an MS68. Heritage put one of these MS68 coins at auction and it sold for $58K+

Another time I ordered a coin that had been promoted as a 1976 P Eisenhower type 1 clad. Upon closer inspection I realized the coin in my hand had a "proof like" finish and I may have a very rare PL or DMPL coin. As soon as I do more investigating I will know for sure. So, as you can see, eBay can cut both ways but always an adventure!  

Edited November 2, 2020 by silverdrag'n
spelling

[RWB]

How about posting a photo of the 1924 double eagle. There are several collectors of those here and they might enjoy seeing a MS-67 example.

[silverdrag'n]

HI,

 

I don't have a 1924 Double Eagle. I have a 1924 P Peace dollar.

[olympicsos]

2 hours ago, RWB said:

How about posting a photo of the 1924 double eagle. There are several collectors of those here and they might enjoy seeing a MS-67 example.

I love coin porn! Double eagle coin porn is my favorite! 

On 10/31/2020 at 9:53 PM, silverdrag'n said:

I couldn't agree with you more, a good local dealer is a fine asset to find. Many dealers tend to forget that the new customer in the shop could be a long-term asset they should cultivate for mutual benefit, not just for "let's stick it to him because we've never seen Joe Blow before and he can't be of consequence." 

The gist of a good interaction, businesswise, is to forget about the momentary gain and strive to build a long-term relationship. I know, in my professional life I offered the corporate development services to take promising companies on to the capital markets, be it the NYSE, NASDAQ, AMEX, OTCBB and the Pink Sheets. Knowing how expensive our services were, I put talk of sales way in the back burner and dedicated my time to listening to my prospective clients because spending a few million dollars on an IPO is a big move for any up-and-coming company. 

The long-term care and utter reliability of my caring and "kid gloves" approach paid off handsomely because they could tell I was honestly interested in the success of their business.

After this, the sales rolled in on their own. 

A good local dealer is very hard to find, especially since so many smaller towns have limited or no coin brick and mortar dealerships. The demand for brick and mortar dealerships just isn't there outside major metropolitan areas unless they also focus on pawning, and even in major metropolitan areas the kind of customers you attract to brick and mortar shops are those that dealers can easily mistake for someone who won't want to build a long term relationship. 

On 10/31/2020 at 11:39 AM, JKK said:

So if two of your local coin dealers sucked, that's how you winnow them out. However, I would point out that bullion dealing and rare coin dealing are two different businesses. I agree that what you describe is a bad attitude and reflects poorly on anyone's business, but I've also been the one answering that phone. There are two main categories of people who call in to the coin store: bullion buyers and coin buyers. (Of course, some people do both.) It gets wearisome having the bullion people grumble over the premium and tell you they can get it cheaper somewhere else. The whole thing is purely commodity and not very profitable, and some dealers do it only because they are expected to--and figure if they are going to do it, they should get a decent profit as they reckon it. None of that excuses poor attitudes or customer service, but it might explain them. Plus, the bullion people often come in and want to talk politics or evangelize about their predictions for the future, and it's like being the bartender--you're stuck with them and their pontifications.

Another problem is that an alarming percentage of coin dealers are socially dysfunctional. When someone recommends a dealer to me I ask: "Okay, so how autistic is he?" It would be wonderful if we could combine good attitudes with certain professions, but there's a significant personality problem in the coin dealership world. If you can't tolerate that, I don't fault you, but it does limit the options.

I stand by what I said, which is that it's worth finding a good local dealer. If those two are the only ones in town or nearby, then I guess that's that. In those cases there are usually coin shows. There is also probably a local coin club where people will know who's good to deal with and may even have an informal bourse or annual show (ours has both; the bourse is during the social hour, at least when we are meeting in person rather than on zoom). Many dealers only do shows and by appointment, so you would not find them except by meeting them at a show and evaluating them there. That's how our local primary ancients dealer is.

The coin collecting hobby doesn't attract as many autistic people as other hobbies such as bus and train enthusiasts. Sometimes the best dealers to build a relationship are ones that are across the country and a plane ride away. This form and ATS has helped me find coin dealers rather than searching for coin dealers within x miles of a certain zip code. 

On 10/31/2020 at 3:11 AM, JKK said:

The biggest problem with online is the tuition involved in sorting out which dealers are reliable to work with. This is why brick and mortar coin shops still exist. Wherever I live, I need to find the best local coin shop and build a good business relationship with the dealer. I buy almost no coins online and I'm not in any hurry to change that.

You have the same tuition with brick and mortar coin shops too. I've sold stuff to brick and mortar coin shops in the NYC metro area where I tried to build a relationship with them, but they were very condescending and arrogant. Like asking me whether I was interested in PCS and NGI certified coins, when we both know NGC and PCGS are the big players in the hobby. 

[silverdrag'n]

Hi,

Sorry olympicsos but I'm fresh out of Double Eagle porn. What I do have is the the obverse and reverse of the 1924 P Peace dollar I've been talking about.

 

Mind you, the photos don't do the coin justice but I'm sure you'll be able to tell its pristine condition. Notice that on the reverse side you can see the finer details of the top of the right wing feathers? I mention this because that is one of the very first areas to wear once the coin is circulated. Matter of fact I compared the my photos to the one that Heritage put up for auction and I think mine is prettier!

 

[RWB]

Lots of scrapes and marks visible. Marks above "1" and on throat; and on eagle's back, between "E" and eagle, at word "Peace" all point to a grade of Unc-63 or so. Don't see the detail on right wing you mention....might be the lighting, etc.

Just an opinion: it is a pleasant coin, but a very long way from Unc-67.

Edited November 2, 2020 by RWB

[rocket23]

1 out of 3 ain’t terrible. 

[James_OldeTowne]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:40 AM, silverdrag'n said:

I was looking to purchase junk silver and I realized the guy was charging me an astronomical premium above spot price,
about 32% above. This exchange happened over the phone. I remember the coin dealer getting hot headed when I
questioned  the high premium.

I let him know that I wasn't interested in his attitude and went elsewhere and found a dealer that was only going to charge
me a premium of about 12% (and I thought that was high as well) I'm sure that if I ever offered any coins for sale to the two
above individuals they would offer me a pittance for my coins. 

My  experience with the two dealers above has cemented a distaste to ever walk into any coin shop since I'd rather be 
treated in an honest manner and that is not what I found on the local level.

The fact that a dealer charges a premium that's "too high" in your opinion does not, all by itself, make the dealer "dishonest".  The premium on numerous items you buy every day is much higher than that.