jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Hello. New to the forum but 40 years numismatic experience. I'm having a dispute with another entity over a grading submission. They have told me their "opinion" of a coin. There are no problems with the Sheldon grade that they have assigned (68), however the coin has been graded as a "Satin Finish" coin versus a business strike "Mint State" coin. I was under the impression that the two coins were made of different compositions (zinc vs. copper) with different weight characteristics. The MS coin should weight 2.50 grams while the Satin coin should weigh 3.11 grams. Could someone please confirm whether there are any other objective differences between the two coins that could help me resolve the issue? Thank you in advance for the advice and commentary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebo Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Welcome to the forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member: Seasoned Veteran DWLange Posted October 1, 2020 Member: Seasoned Veteran Share Posted October 1, 2020 Both the Uncirculated Set coins (satin finish) and the currency pieces are made of brass-plated zinc. The Unc Set coins for 2005-10 were coined with dies that had a different finish applied to them, but the coins are otherwise similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 Thank you for the reply. I did not know that there were made of the same material. The other website states that they are different in that the Satin Finish coins in the Unc Sets are the original pre-1982 brass composition weighing 3.11 grams. All I know is I have searched 3 years and 250,000 pennies in N.F. String and company uncirculated bank wrapped rolls to find this coin only to have it graded incorrectly. Is there any way that a Satin Finish coin could end up in a bank roll?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 18 minutes ago, DWLange said: Both the Uncirculated Set coins (satin finish) and the currency pieces are made of brass-plated zinc. The Unc Set coins for 2005-10 were coined with dies that had a different finish applied to them, but the coins are otherwise similar. David, I am pretty sure the Lincoln Bicentennial One Cent pieces from 2009 from the SMS (Mint sets) are not copper-plated zinc. My understanding was that the 2009 SMS Lincoln Cents (from mint sets) and the proof coins were 3.11 g and minted in the 95% copper, 3% zinc, and 2% tin alloy in commemoration of the original issue composition from 1909-1982. The 2009 Lincoln Cents issued for circulation are the normal 2.5 grams and copper-plated zinc composition (post-1982 composition). I believe all of the other Satin Finish (SMS) Lincoln cents from 2005-2008 and in 2010 are of the normal copper-plated zinc composition. Can you please confirm/clarify? The US Mint website suggests the mint set SMS Lincoln coins from 2009 were of the 3.11 gram older composition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, jbrenneman01 said: Thank you for the reply. I did not know that there were made of the same material. The other website states that they are different in that the Satin Finish coins in the Unc Sets are the original pre-1982 brass composition weighing 3.11 grams. All I know is I have searched 3 years and 250,000 pennies in N.F. String and company uncirculated bank wrapped rolls to find this coin only to have it graded incorrectly. Is there any way that a Satin Finish coin could end up in a bank roll?? Can you clarify exactly what coin you have and it's details? What year? What weight? What grade was assigned? Your first post isn't completely clear what you are asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 Coin is a 2009-D LP-4 Lincoln Presidency coin weighing 2.50 grams. Grade assigned was SP-68. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Just now, jbrenneman01 said: Coin is a 2009-D LP-4 Lincoln Presidency coin weighing 2.50 grams. Grade assigned was SP-68. In my opinion, it should be graded MS68, as the SP (SMS Satin Finish) coins weighed 3.11 grams. At least, to my understanding and what the Mint website states. I would wait for @DWLange to reply here to clarify - and if the 2009 coins in SMS were 3.11 grams, you can call the TPG who made the error and request that they review the coin and fix the grade designation. Do you have a 2009 mint set and a scale with 0.01 g accuracy? I have such a scale, but I don't think I have any raw 2009 Satin Finish cents. Mine are all already slabbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Of note, NGC's own website supports and specifies that the 2009 SMS Lincoln Cents are 3.11g: Link here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 I don't have any mint sets as I pick the coins all from bank wrapped rolls. I have never looked at the mint sets. I do have a scale accurate to .01 grams. The coin weighs 2.50 grams. The TPG service has been notified for a month that the grade was incorrect, it has been reviewed, all five graders were in agreement with the SP designation, they have rejected my request to have it grade as MS68RD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, jbrenneman01 said: I don't have any mint sets as I pick the coins all from bank wrapped rolls. I have never looked at the mint sets. I do have a scale accurate to .01 grams. The coin weighs 2.50 grams. The TPG service has been notified for a month that the grade was incorrect, it has been reviewed, all five graders were in agreement with the SP designation, they have rejected my request to have it grade as MS68RD. I don't want to get into what TPG it is, but in my opinion they are simply wrong. You may need to submit to a different TPG that knows what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, brg5658 said: Of note, NGC's own website supports and specifies that the 2009 SMS Lincoln Cents are 3.11g: Link here. Understood. I have noted that both the U.S. Mint website and the NGC website confirm that SP coins are 3.11 grams. I have noted this to the TPG service multiple times. They won't concur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Just now, jbrenneman01 said: Understood. I have noted that both the U.S. Mint website and the NGC website confirm that SP coins are 3.11 grams. I have noted this to the TPG service multiple times. They won't concur. Or you can say you have an extremely rare Satin Finish coin struck on a Regular Circulation planchet. RonnieR131 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 Just now, brg5658 said: I don't want to get into what TPG it is, but in my opinion they are simply wrong. You may need to submit to a different TPG that knows what they are doing. That's what I'm considering and why I came here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 Just now, brg5658 said: Or you can say you have an extremely rare Satin Finish coin struck on a Regular Circulation planchet. I was going to go that route also!! brg5658 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Something that is extremely odd and inconsistent is that NGC lists the following: 2009-D SMS Lincoln Cent, Birth and Childhood - 3.11g 2009-D SMS Lincoln Cent, Formative Years - 2.50 g 2009-D SMS Lincoln Cent, Professional Life - 2.50 g 2009-D SMS Lincoln Cent, Presidency - 2.50 g I am almost certain that all of the 784,000-ish Mint set SMS coins for the Lincoln Cents in 2009 are made of 3.11 g and 95% copper composition. Someone needs to fix the NGC coin description listings, as they don't even agree internally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 43 minutes ago, brg5658 said: Something that is extremely odd and inconsistent is that NGC lists the following: 2009-D SMS Lincoln Cent, Birth and Childhood - 3.11g 2009-D SMS Lincoln Cent, Formative Years - 2.50 g 2009-D SMS Lincoln Cent, Professional Life - 2.50 g 2009-D SMS Lincoln Cent, Presidency - 2.50 g I am almost certain that all of the 784,000-ish Mint set SMS coins for the Lincoln Cents in 2009 are made of 3.11 g and 95% copper composition. Someone needs to fix the NGC coin description listings, as they don't even agree internally. Interesting. And therein lies the controversy with the other TPG service. Until everyone is in agreement and can verify that the US Mint only made SMS one cent coins out of 95% copper that weigh 3.11 g, there will be no reason for concurrence on the designation that was assigned. Any ideas who to contact? If I could get certification from the Director of the US Mint, I would imagine that would suffice as proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELuis Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Just to add some info from the red book 2019 page 138: 'Special versions included in satin-finish collector sets are made of the same metallic composition as was used for the original 1909 cents (95% copper, 5% tin and zinc).' Too bad no weight it is avail on the book HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 Thank you. Always good to have additional information sources for my case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsshog40 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 I could swear that the Lincolns from the uncirculated mint sets were a satin finish of 95% copper. The business strikes should be copper plated zinc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, bsshog40 said: I could swear that the Lincolns from the uncirculated mint sets were a satin finish of 95% copper. The business strikes should be copper plated zinc. That's what I'm finding from all of my sources also, but any additional confirmation would be extremely helpful to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsshog40 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Well if you look at the price guides for NGC and PCGS. The mints sets were satin finish, 95% copper at 3.11g. Although NGC is calling them Bronze, they are actually copper. The business strikes are copper plated zinc at 2.5g. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 All of the Mint Set 2009 Lincolns are satin finish and they are ALL 95% copper 5% tin and zinc. (DWLange got it wrong. Understandable since all the other years of satin finish sets do contain copper plated zinc.) If the coin in question weighs 2.5 grams it is NOT a satin finish or SP coin and the grading services got it wrong (and will probably call it a mechanical error). But they will fix it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) On 10/1/2020 at 11:17 AM, DWLange said: Both the Uncirculated Set coins (satin finish) and the currency pieces are made of brass-plated zinc. The Unc Set coins for 2005-10 were coined with dies that had a different finish applied to them, but the coins are otherwise similar. With all due respect, the OP makes reference to a term, "business strike," -- thru no fault of his own escewing the term "circulation strike" which had been used since the beginnings of recorded time. If anyone knows, I would appreciate an explanation -- not because I dislike the term intensely (I do) but fail to see how its use promotes clarification, classification and understanding. Edited October 3, 2020 by Quintus Arrius Clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrenneman01 Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 I personally have heard the term used interchangeably. Business strikes are coins that are made for circulation and not collectors. I was using the term that pertains to my situation and that is what it's called at the other TPG service to differentiate between the SMS (Satin Finish) coins. Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 On 10/1/2020 at 11:17 AM, DWLange said: Both the Uncirculated Set coins (satin finish) and the currency pieces are made of brass-plated zinc. The Unc Set coins for 2005-10 were coined with dies that had a different finish applied to them, but the coins are otherwise similar. I believe this is incorrect, David. All the 2009 cents in EITHER uncirculated sets or proof sets were the classic brass/bronze alloy, and NOT "Zincolns". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 1 hour ago, VKurtB said: I believe this is incorrect, David. All the 2009 cents in EITHER uncirculated sets or proof sets were the classic brass/bronze alloy, and NOT "Zincolns". This was established a week ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
