Understanding Uncirculated coin grading is tough.... 1 1

[Insider]

IMHO, this is just a case of "Do As I say, NOT AS I DO."   Case in point,  a certain medium grade MS $20 with "exceptional color" with the "right" ownership and story.  

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, Insider said:

IMHO, this is just a case of "Do As I say, NOT AS I DO."   Case in point,  a certain medium grade MS $20 with "exceptional color" with the "right" ownership and story.  

Amen, brother.

[Cat Bath]

22 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

There really is only one true grading criterion over there - “because we said so.”

So long as they run it past  New Jersey.

Or...Supernova-Lady

Edited August 20, 2020 by Cat Bath

[kbbpll]

41 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

they have serious problems with honesty and transparency

I guess you haven't said that over there!

[RWB]

As has probably been noted from the Part 1 post, there is no place in coin grading for ownership, rarity, provenance, rumor or any other subjective or emotional influence.

"The coin speaks for itself and only the coin has a voice."

[VKurtB]

26 minutes ago, kbbpll said:

I guess you haven't said that over there!

I’m pugnacious, not stupid.

[VKurtB]

52 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

So long as they run it past  New Jersey.

Or...Supernova-Lady

Quite possibly among the cadre that defines “we” for them. I like reading stuff from “da Joisey broad”. She is my source for rude comment vocabulary.  Rumor has it she has PCGS and CAC tattoos in places I never wanna see.

Edited August 20, 2020 by VKurtB

[Coinbuf]

I for one am enjoying this thread very much, looking forward to the next segment.

[Cat Bath]

Years ago there was a question asked. "What is the difference between a numismatist and coin collector"

I remember my answer but I want to change it.

"When you replace a higher graded coin with a lower one in your set registry"

[Henri Charriere]

8 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

"When you replace a higher graded coin with a lower one in your set registry...

with dazzling, exceptional eye appeal."  I understand.

[Zebo]

46 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

with dazzling, exceptional eye appeal."  I understand.

I was giving odds that you couldn't stay off the boards until Labor Day. It didn't take long. Welcome back 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Zebo

[Henri Charriere]

14 minutes ago, Zebo said:

I was giving odds that you couldn't stay off the boards until Labor Day. Welcome back

Couldn't resist this one! Sorry.

[Insider]

52 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Couldn't resist this one! Sorry.

Don't go away.   That would probably cut the total number of active posters on all the forums here by 5%! 

I've already used up one like and one LOL for today in this thread.  I'm keeping track and i'll let you know the limit per day.  

Edited August 21, 2020 by Insider

[Henri Charriere]

4 minutes ago, Insider said:

Don't go away.   That would probably cut the total number of active posters on all the forums here by 5%! 

I've already used up one like and one LOL for today in this thread.  I'm keeping track and i'll let you know the limit per day.  

Only 5%? Carry on!

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

Don't go away.   That would probably cut the total number of active posters on all the forums here by 5%! 

I've already used up one like and one LOL for today in this thread.  I'm keeping track and i'll let you know the limit per day.  

Please don’t encourage someone to continue to go back on their word.

[RWB]

The final ingredients will be added to the soup Sunday - just in time for members to read it to their Coin Collecting Congregations from the mighty pulpit as they waive the sacred Red Book and cry "Holy! Holy! Holy!" on the way to the golf course.

:)

[Conder101]

On 8/20/2020 at 11:44 AM, Insider said:

They are going to say the coin is weakly struck and the market of KNOWLEDGEABLE collectors will agree.

But what about the vastly larger market of collectors who only know what the label says.

[RWB]

3. Emotional, individual, expressive.

The characteristics from Part 2, above, are built on social interactions and communication, but they also have a unique personal expression. This comes from our individual backgrounds of home, family, education, cultural exposure and multiple psychological factors. This is where prior ownership, labeling producer, submitter fall as they distort the truth of the coin itself.

Coin collecting is an outward expression of normal human needs for organization, structure and enhanced perception. It is also an aspect of exerting controlled self-worth within a broader social context. By collecting coins we control a certain amount of tangible wealth and thereby prove to ourselves that we are socially secure enough to not require this same wealth for daily needs. In a few individuals this becomes a true psychosis. LaVerne Redfield acquired bags of silver dollars to fill a hole – both literally and emotionally. E.R. Green filled a mansion’s basement with collections; Louis Eliasberg bought one of everything so no one else could.

Our broad-based emotional responses combine with immediate feelings to bend our perceptions of things like toning or luster. Patterns of color, light and dark, or reflections are used by our minds to satisfy needs, or to warn of danger – not just physical threat but emotional and potential social danger. To disagree with an authority figure is to risk rejection, so we nod in agreement thereby accepting something that appeases one emotional end of the balance while exacerbating the other.

When we try to grade an uncirculated coin individual our backgrounds get in the way. We perceive what we expect or desire, ignoring the rest until another time. This is the source of “buyer’s regret” but the same factors lead to “grader’s regret.” It is not an error or mistake, but a change in perception that makes the difference evident.

We cannot easily turn this personal response On and Off like a switch. The most we can to do help ourselves to recognize it is always present, and allow time between coin observations for more recent emotional exposures to moderate the impact.

What Does This Mean When Grading Uncirculated Coin?

The first thing is to place most of the emphasis on Part 1 – quantitative, objective, measurements and the results derived from them.

Second is to recognize that Part 2 is a socially developed and moderated opinion that is rarely controllable and can differ among groups of individuals. Without clearly defined, objectively measureable criteria, subjective factors have to be excluded.

Third is understanding Part 3 in our personal emotional interactions; that they can influence a decision much more than we realize. Ownership, submitter, assumed scarcity are never part of a grade determination and assignment. Never.

Practical processes suggested are:

·         Allow sufficient time to accurately observe.

·         Separate empirical from qualitative data.

·         Allow time between observations to help reduce emotional responses.

The ideal is that a “grade” is entirely objective, and it is accompanied by separate subjective descriptors. For example:

Objective: “MS-64.

Subjective: Excellent luster; below average detail; irregular brown toning.”

[Insider]

6 hours ago, Conder101 said:

But what about the vastly larger market of collectors who only know what the label says.

Sorry, I need to know what I posted to answer this.  The single sentence you posted above that I wrote is not enough.

[Henri Charriere]

Objective: 1995-W PR-70 DCAM SILVER AE

Subjective:  "Fair Market Value," $0.00/$999./$86,655./ $15-16,000.

[Cat Bath]

Picked up this beautiful MS63 near melt before gold popped. The reverse is even nicer but I don't have a picture yet.

It's so nice to be done with my registry set & not be concerned about plastic and stickers anymore.

If this had a little S on it the grade would be different.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Cat Bath

[RWB]

No, the "grade" should be identical. The presence of a mintmark is not relevant to the state of preservation.

Edited August 27, 2020 by RWB

[Cat Bath]

Since PCGS has become JA's little lap dog, I'm pretty sure a gold sticker would improve the state of preservation also.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Cat Bath

[Insider]

9 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

Since PCGS has become JA's little lap dog, I'm pretty sure a gold sticker would improve the state of preservation also.

Please explain this comment for those of us who are not as informed as you are:  "Since PCGS has become JA's little lap dog,..."

Thanks in advance! 

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

Please explain this comment for those of us who are not as informed as you are:  "Since PCGS has become JA's little lap dog,..."

Thanks in advance! 

While Cat Bath mulls that over... anyone care to posit a guess as to what that pile of metal fatigue at the traditional location of the mint-mark once was?

[Insider]

17 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

While Cat Bath mulls that over... anyone care to posit a guess as to what that pile of metal fatigue at the traditional location of the mint-mark once was?

Mint marks on these coins are placed over the date.  Are you wondering what the designers initials are under the date? 

If so, now I better understand many of your posts.  

[VKurtB]

9 minutes ago, Insider said:

Mint marks on these coins are placed over the date.  Are you wondering what the designers initials are under the date? 

If so, now I better understand many of your posts.  

But Skip, they're not French, and there are no chicken feathers, so QA is out of his element here.

[Cat Bath]

4 hours ago, Insider said:

Please explain this comment for those of us who are not as informed as you are: 

PCGS boasts about how they qualify for beans more than any other TPG & they constructed a whole "Adoration of the Magi" registry for CAC.

They are really tight right now so you have to do the east coast/west coast submission thing for an upgrade.

You gonna make me type the whole "system" out? [sigh]

[Insider]

Just now, Cat Bath said:

PCGS boasts about how they qualify for beans more than any other TPG & they constructed a whole "Adoration of the Magi" registry for CAC.

They are really tight right now so you have to do the east coast/west coast submission thing for an upgrade.

You gonna make me type the whole "system" out? [sigh]

1. "PCGS boasts about how they qualify for beans more than any other TPG."  IS THIS TRUE?  Do They?

2, CAC is a popular and successful company.  Do you agree that establishing a CAC only registry might just be a good business decision?  That might be similar to a TPGS printing several different label designs for the same date silver eagle coin.  Collectors will want one of each.  Good business decision.  

3. Do you believe that CAC evaluates coins differently from each service? 

4. I have heard that the same exact coin will usually bring more money  graded (from top to bottom):

PCGS CAC

NGC CAC

PCGS

NGC

Other TPGS

Have you seen this?

[Cat Bath]

49 minutes ago, Insider said:

1. "PCGS boasts about how they qualify for beans more than any other TPG."  IS THIS TRUE?  Do They?

Let's go one at a time...#1

“There is clear synergy between our brands and what we provide to the market. Data shows that the majority of CAC-stickered coins are PCGS certified, and these coins often boast record-setting auction prices. There is clear demand here,” further explained Charville [Brett] when discussing the decision-making process.

 "PCGS is looking forward to working with Albanese to further develop the Set Registry program and other collector-focused initiatives."

https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-launches-exclusive-cac-set-registry

Edited August 27, 2020 by Cat Bath