GSA Hoard Question/s 0

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/4/2023 at 12:54 PM, VKurtB said:

We CAN know how many submissions have been made. The top two firms brag on that incessantly. But how many coins they actually represent? Dream on. Unknowable. Every time I crack out a coin to place in my son’s literal Dansco 7070 album, the label gets taped onto the inside back cover, not reported to the TPGS. I also put together a 5-coin Morgan dollar “one per mint” set (P, D, S, O, CC) all in mint state in a Capitol Plastics holder. Two of those are crack outs, too. The labels are right there between the two lucite covers. 

I'm talking knowing the parameters of high-quality coins for the type.  Nobody is concerned with Dansco or Capitol coins unless they have the only remaining members of a total population of a few dozen or few hundred.

Read the Winter article.  If we know if a coin series is 65% graded or 90% graded, that's enough.

[J P M]

On 1/5/2023 at 1:30 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm talking knowing the parameters of high-quality coins for the type.  Nobody is concerned with Dansco or Capitol coins unless they have the only remaining members of a total population of a few dozen or few hundred.

Read the Winter article.  If we know if a coin series is 65% graded or 90% graded, that's enough.

I think what VKurtB said is relevant if he is taking a certified coin and removing it from it's holder. Others may do the same thing and that would change the numbers in the future. If the coins get graded and end up in someone else's collection   

[EagleRJO]

On 1/1/2023 at 5:11 PM, Sandon said:

... including the "mixed years" coins--the ones in the cases that don't include the word "UNCIRCULATED"--some of which were culled out due to "tarnish", which in many cases today is viewed as desirable (to some) "toning".

Not sure what you mean by "culled out"'  Do you mean replace the coin, because even the mixed mark holders (attached) were sealed/glued closed, although not completely tamper resistant.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/5/2023 at 7:57 AM, J P M said:

I think what VKurtB said is relevant if he is taking a certified coin and removing it from it's holder. Others may do the same thing and that would change the numbers in the future. If the coins get graded and end up in someone else's collection   

Why would someone remove a cetified coin from the holder ?

[J P M]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:00 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Why would someone remove a cetified coin from the holder ?

On 1/4/2023 at 12:54 PM, VKurtB said:

We CAN know how many submissions have been made. The top two firms brag on that incessantly. But how many coins they actually represent? Dream on. Unknowable. Every time I crack out a coin to place in my son’s literal Dansco 7070 album, the label gets taped onto the inside back cover, not reported to the TPGS. I also put together a 5-coin Morgan dollar “one per mint” set (P, D, S, O, CC) all in mint state in a Capitol Plastics holder. Two of those are crack outs, too. The labels are right there between the two lucite covers. 

The way VKurtB wrote his post says to me he cracks out coin holders for the coins to be put in books ?

[Sandon]

    I know an advanced collector who has purchased four figure coins that have been certified and cracked them out to put in albums. I also know a dealer who refers to slabs as "coin prisons".

   A significant number of collectors continue to dislike the appearance and bulk of certified holders and prefer to collect uncertified coins and display and store them in albums and Lucite frames or other plastic holders. I dislike them myself but consider certification a necessary evil for more valuable or very high-grade coins.

[EagleRJO]

On 1/5/2023 at 1:12 PM, Sandon said:

I also know a dealer who refers to slabs as "coin prisons"

Coin Coffins or Slab Coffins ⚰️ 

Edited January 7, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

@EagleRJO--The GSA Carson City silver dollars were sorted into two groups. Although nearly all were uncirculated, those that were considered to have too many scratches and other abrasions or to be too "tarnished" were culled out and except for the 1878-CCs sold in hard GSA holders lettered with "CARSON CITY SILVER DOLLAR" instead of "CARSON CITY UNCIRCULATED SILVER DOLLAR".  Whereas in the 1972-74 sales 1882, 83, and 84-CC dollars in the holders marked "UNCIRCULATED" were initially sold for the minimum bids of $30 each and 1880, 81, and 1885-CC dollars in those holders for $60 each, all of the coins that were in the other holders were sold as "Mixed Years" for $15 or so each.  (Some of the later sales realized somewhat higher prices.) These "Mixed Years" coins were mostly 1882, 83, and 84-CCs but also included over 58,000 1880, 81 and 85-CCs, and several hundred each of the more valuable 1879, 90, and 91-CCs!  All told, 2,123,857 "CC" dollars were sold as "Uncirculated" and 687,956 as "Mixed Years". Some coins in the "Mixed Years" holders have since received higher MS grades than some in the "UNCIRCULATED" holders.

   Before the GSA sales the 1878-CC was considered the most common (and least expensive) "CC" dollar. The 13,426 1878-CCs that were culled out due to abrasions and tarnish were placed in GSA "soft pack" holders along with over 84,000 circulated or culled non-CC silver dollars of various dates and sold, as I recall, for $4 each.  The GSA sold an additional mixed 27,980 non-CC silver dollars in hard GSA holders like the 1885 in your photo lettered with "UNITED STATES UNCIRCULATED SILVER DOLLAR".

Source: Van Allen & Mallis, Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars (3d ed. 1991), pp. 399-400.  

    

[EagleRJO]

@Sandon the attached are the GSA holders I am aware of, which except for the soft pack are sealed and not easily opened without damaging the holder.

Understood now what you meant by "cull" GSA coin before. To me it means a very poor condition coin you might find in an LCS jar, so I did a double take.

Edited May 23, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

    The coin at the top right of @EagleRJO's photo was sold as a "Mixed Years" coin, probably because of the scratch across Liberty's face.  It would likely be graded MS 61 or 62 today.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/5/2023 at 1:12 PM, Sandon said:

I know an advanced collector who has purchased four figure coins that have been certified and cracked them out to put in albums. I also know a dealer who refers to slabs as "coin prisons".

I cannot believe any "advanced collector" does that.   As Estelle Costanza would sady.....it's INSANITY !!! 

On 1/5/2023 at 1:12 PM, Sandon said:

 A significant number of collectors continue to dislike the appearance and bulk of certified holders and prefer to collect uncertified coins and display and store them in albums and Lucite frames or other plastic holders. I dislike them myself but consider certification a necessary evil for more valuable or very high-grade coins.

Whatever one thinks of the grade or the aesthetics....the modern holders are THE BEST for preserving a coin.  As one veteran collector/dealer said....every time an expensive coin travelled to FUN or Long Beach in a 2x2...it picked up hairlines.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/5/2023 at 2:17 PM, Sandon said:

@EagleRJO--The GSA Carson City silver dollars were sorted into two groups. Although nearly all were uncirculated, those that were considered to have too many scratches and other abrasions or to be too "tarnished" were culled out and except for the 1878-CCs sold in hard GSA holders lettered with "CARSON CITY SILVER DOLLAR" instead of "CARSON CITY UNCIRCULATED SILVER DOLLAR".  Whereas in the 1972-74 sales 1882, 83, and 84-CC dollars in the holders marked "UNCIRCULATED" were initially sold for the minimum bids of $30 each and 1880, 81, and 1885-CC dollars in those holders for $60 each, all of the coins that were in the other holders were sold as "Mixed Years" for $15 or so each.  (Some of the later sales realized somewhat higher prices.) These "Mixed Years" coins were mostly 1882, 83, and 84-CCs but also included over 58,000 1880, 81 and 85-CCs, and several hundred each of the more valuable 1879, 90, and 91-CCs!  All told, 2,123,857 "CC" dollars were sold as "Uncirculated" and 687,956 as "Mixed Years". Some coins in the "Mixed Years" holders have since received higher MS grades than some in the "UNCIRCULATED" holders.   Before the GSA sales the 1878-CC was considered the most common (and least expensive) "CC" dollar. The 13,426 1878-CCs that were culled out due to abrasions and tarnish were placed in GSA "soft pack" holders along with over 84,000 circulated or culled non-CC silver dollars of various dates and sold, as I recall, for $4 each.  The GSA sold an additional mixed 27,980 non-CC silver dollars in hard GSA holders like the 1885 in your photo lettered with "UNITED STATES UNCIRCULATED SILVER DOLLAR".  Source: Van Allen & Mallis, Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars (3d ed. 1991), pp. 399-400.  

So during the original sales...the government knew about valuable years and mintmarks and raised the prices accordingly ? 

[GoldFinger1969]

What exactly was the purpose of that stupid plastic token in the plastic wrap ?  

Edited January 5, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[J P M]

On 1/5/2023 at 6:08 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What exactly was the purpose of that stupid plastic token in the plastic wrap ?  

I think it was the same size as a coin and used because a paper label would not work with the plastic wrap

[Sandon]

On 1/5/2023 at 6:08 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What exactly was the purpose of that stupid plastic token in the plastic wrap ?  

   Similar plastic tokens were used in 1965 Special Mint Sets and 1968-72 uncirculated coin ("Mint") sets.  Those in the "Mint" sets indicated the mint at which the coins in the particular soft plastic panel the coins were struck.  

[J P M]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:00 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Why would someone remove a cetified coin from the holder ?

I was at one of my go to dealers one day and I was looking at some of his gold, raw and graded coins. I was looking at a AU 50  Liberty 2 1/2 in a old NGC holder. He asked me what I thought and I said the new slabs with the corner pins show the coin nicer.It was a bit scratchy and the soap bar look overpowers the coin a bit compared to its size. Before I could make him a offer he took the slab and a pair of cutters and snapped it out of the holder. I said wow that was quick and he said I trust your judgment as a collector and I will get the same or a better price for it without the slab. So Yes ,,People remove coins from slabs all the time even professionals. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:42 AM, J P M said:

He asked me what I thought and I said the new slabs with the corner pins show the coin nicer.It was a bit scratchy and the soap bar look overpowers the coin a bit compared to its size. Before I could make him a offer he took the slab and a pair of cutters and snapped it out of the holder. I said wow that was quick and he said I trust your judgment as a collector and I will get the same or a better price for it without the slab. So Yes ,,People remove coins from slabs all the time even professionals. 

I dislike that solid soap bar holder, too.  Probably one of my least-favorite holders.  The newer NGC holders are great, but prongs for me are a MUST as I hate having the sides of the coin totally obscured by solid material.

Also, while I acknowledge some people cracking out here-and-there (especially for higher grades or even LOWER grades with a CAC)....it's the exception not the rule. 

[VKurtB]

On 1/6/2023 at 10:24 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I dislike that solid soap bar holder, too.  Probably one of my least-favorite holders.  The newer NGC holders are great, but prongs for me are a MUST as I hate having the sides of the coin totally obscured by solid material.

Also, while I acknowledge some people cracking out here-and-there (especially for higher grades or even LOWER grades with a CAC)....it's the exception not the rule. 

It’s far more “the rule” than you can possibly imagine. And I disagree that NGC and PCGS holders are the best home for preservation purposes. They’re meh, average, at best. Remember, GF, some of us have been at this hobby since long before TPGS even existed. Sixty years now for me. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/7/2023 at 6:37 PM, VKurtB said:

It’s far more “the rule” than you can possibly imagine. And I disagree that NGC and PCGS holders are the best home for preservation purposes. They’re meh, average, at best. Remember, GF, some of us have been at this hobby since long before TPGS even existed. Sixty years now for me. 

You're saying if you travel with coins that having them in an album or tissue paper or 2x2 is better than an NGC or PCGS (or even ANACS/ICG) holder ?  

[GoldFinger1969]

Good information that I found while clicking around concerning the origins of the GSA Hoard and the Carson City coins:

https://www.southgatecoins.com/gsa-carson-city-hoard-history

 

 

[EagleRJO]

I can't believe they made a movie in 1971 about the transporting and sorting of GSA Carson City coins.    

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwRNEQP2Ww0

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/22/2023 at 9:56 PM, EagleRJO said:

I can't believe they made a movie in 1971 about the transporting and sorting of GSA Carson City coins.    

 

 

Wow, great find !!   And did you recognize the voice -- Burgess Meredith !!  THE PENGUIN !!

Holy Carson City Dollars, Batman....I smell an inside job !!  To the BatMobile ! 

[EagleRJO]

On 5/23/2023 at 12:24 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow, great find !!

Concerning Morgan silver dollars, I have tons of references and links, including stuff on the GSA hoards. 

I really couldn't believe they would do a documentary about that, so I saved the link.  And yea, I recognized the commentators voice:  "Holy coin hoards Batman, to the Bat Mobile so we can take these bad boys back to the bat cave before the Penguin steals them".  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:34 AM, EagleRJO said:

Concerning Morgan silver dollars, I have tons of references and links, including stuff on the GSA hoards.

You know, you have a very valuable asset -- similar to what I have for Double Eagles (SG & LH).   

You should take some time....put it into a Word/PDF document....and have the links, the comments, etc.....all posted in a major GSA Hoard Thread here at NGC.  I've done it with Heritage Auctions commentaries from Dave Akers, who was one of the great dealers/catalogers of Saints over the decades over nearly 40 years.  I think I posted it here, maybe in the RWB Saints Thread.  Wait a second....now that I think about it, I think I couldn't attach PDF/Word docs here at NGC and they never fixed that glitch  so I think I only advertised the document and emailed it to 1 or 2 people here.

While there is lots more information on Morgan Dollars and the GSA Hoard than on DEs (SG/LH) both in print and on the Net, to have it all ordered or in a few documents makes it really easy for others to utilize and even yourself.  I even have a "miscellaneous" Word document that I will add cut-and-pastes with anything that is unique or doesn't fit another document that I have.  I have separate documents for HA Commentaries.....Auctions Pre-1970.....Hoards.....Miscellaneous....and a few others.

[EagleRJO]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:56 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You know, you have a very valuable asset -- similar to what I have for Double Eagles (SG & LH).

And add to that the the books I also purchased.  I just accumulated the books, info and links when I was researching Morgan silver dollars before I started a 105 coin NGC style Complete Circulation Set for those coins.  "Know the coin before you buy the coin".  See attached examples as well as the only four legit holders for the GSA Morgans previously posted.

I knew it was going to be a big investment of time and money with 105 coins in the set (every year and all marks of circulated Morgans), including all the Carson City Morgans which can be pricy.  Plus, I wanted raw coins in the set for the most part, which is how I think coins should be collected since I am a little old school, and another research and coin evaluation time suck with all the counterfeit Morgans around.  Hence I still had the vid link.  

 

 

I caught these comments since this topic became active again and 

"Uncirculated" or Mixed Years" which could have desirable toning previously thougjt to be unattractive

Edited May 24, 2023 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

I remind @GoldFinger1969 that I do quite regularly remove coins fro PCGS, NGC, and especially ANACS and ICG slabs and add them to albums. I am a "advanced collector" and have been serious in this hobby for over 60 years now. Some coins never should have ever been put into slabs, and I feel no reluctance to remove them when appropriate. OTOH, I have also had a few coins slabbed that still have no business being in slabs, except to establish a consistent look and feel for a competitive exhibit. (This is NOT the same as a Registry Set.) These are those cases cordoned off to one side of the bourse where people with clipboards obsess over every nuance as if they were suffering from OCD or some other place on the autism spectrum. They are.

[EagleRJO]

On 12/31/2022 at 10:34 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If they are ungraded, they're probably MS60-62, say the experts.

On 1/1/2023 at 5:11 PM, Sandon said:

  Only a small percentage of "CC" dollars in GSA holders have been submitted to the grading services.

I caught these comments since this topic became active again, and note that public GSA auctions typically limited the number of coins that could be bid on by individuals to one of each type.  Like the Aug 1973 and July 1974 GSA hoard bid instructions (attached) which notes "... you may bid on only one coin from each [year/selection] ...".

Most of the individual sale CC Morgans have not been graded from a simple check of pop reports for the major TPGs.  Accordingly, there are a considerable number of individual GSA hoard CC and other mark coins out there being privately held.

These include a vast number of the "Uncirculated" coins which were cherrypicked by the GSA as the better coins (or not "culled out"), and would grade fairly high.  There are also quite a number of the "Mixed Years" coins as well, which could have desirable toning.

This toning was previously thought to be unattractive, as most collectirs at the time prefered the bright silver coins, and thus they were not selected for "uncirculated".  These coins may also grade very high in addition to getting a bump for good "eye appeal" under current grading standards.

There are very likely quite a lot of high grade raw CC Morgans still in a sock drawer or tucked away in an attic.  From my own observations as a raw Morgan collector, there seems to be a limited but fairly steady supply of these high grade CC Morgans coming on the market over time as they are "discovered" hidden away or passed down to other who just want to sell them.

So I have discovered that if you are in the market for some of these raw CC Morgans, at a relatively reasonable price, patience is the key.

On 5/23/2023 at 1:37 PM, VKurtB said:

... I do quite regularly remove coins from PCGS, NGC, and especially ANACS and ICG slabs and add them to albums ... Some coins never should have ever been put into slabs, and I feel no reluctance to remove them when appropriate.

If you don't have one Kurt, you should definitely get a "slab cracker", readily available from better coin supply outfits, like Wizard Coin Supply.  Cracks the entombed babies right out of those utilitarian paper-labeled plastic coin coffins, without it turning into a gut-wrenching almost-heart-stopping event from the fear of damaging the coin!  Those slab crackers make short work of the TPG's tamper resistant holders.  

Edited May 25, 2023 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

What did the GSA people do with the coins they KNEW were more valuable because they only had a few of them and they were already scarce -- did they just open those up to "first come, first served" or did they sell those individually ? 

I believe they had one year/mintage with only 1 coin (1899 or 1890, or something like that).

Also...one of the reasons these had the demand they did was no doubt because of all the Western-themed TV series from the 1950's and 1960's, which were being dramatically reduced in favor of urban sitcoms as the 1970's hit but which were still on TV (Gunsmoke, Bonanza).  The phrase "Carson City" was referenced lots of times on shows like "Bonanza" and I'm not surprised they had lots of willing buyers.

FYI, at one time (late-1950's/early-1960's) there were like 27 Western TV shows on the air !!  By the late-1960's, down to about a dozen or so.  By mid-1975, it was down to 1 (Gunsmoke).  Different era, those of you receiving Social Security checks know what I am talking about. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

On 5/25/2023 at 12:41 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What did the GSA people do with the coins they KNEW were more valuable because they only had a few of them and they were already scarce -- did they just open those up to "first come, first served" or did they sell those individually ? 

Why do think there were only a few of the ones being sold that were more valuable?  As far as I know the majority were the better "Uncirculated" coins, and the badly bag marked or toned ones were sold with the "mixed years" coins.  What "more valuable" category are you referencing?

Plus the GSA was known for counting and tracking every nut and bolt.  So there can't be more than perhaps a few handfulls of cherry uncirculated ones that went "missing".  Watch the 1971 vid on handling and transporting the GSA hoard.

Also, I still occasionally watch Gunsmoke. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/25/2023 at 1:32 AM, EagleRJO said:

Why do think there were only a few of the ones being sold that were more valuable?  As far as I know the majority were the better "Uncirculated" coins, and the badly bag marked or toned ones were sold with the "mixed years" coins.  What "more valuable" category are you referencing?

I recall tens of thousands of certain dates/mints....but then others with only a few dozen or hundreds ?  And I believe 1 or 2 dates had only 1 or 2 coins.

So I'm referencing already scarce years/mints that had only a few come out.  Not like 1904-O's which were rare but then got flooded.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by GoldFinger1969