Grading is Subjective 1 1

[Conrad57]

  I understand, even though I'm kinda new to serious collecting, that coin grading is subjective.  I was looking on ebay for a 1921 Peace Dollar.  I ran across this coin (pictured), and I am wondering how this is an MS 65+.  I just had a few Peace dollars graded and my 1928 came back graded as a AU 55 with far more detail this 1921 MS-65+?  My coin reference for this is 5895487-001.  I'm not upset, but I am very curious.  

Thanks for your input; Frank

Edited July 3, 2020 by Conrad57
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[Henri Charriere]

This query is deserving of a serious response.  I submitted a number of raw French 20-franc gold roosters to a third-party grader absolutely confident that one would be the very first ever accorded a MS68 grade, minimum. (I own five graded MS67 so I know what excellence looks like and revel in the term, "none graded finer.")

Imagine my disappointment when this impeccable coin, strongly struck, with sharp devices, dazzling eye appeal and original mint lustre and no observable defects was dismissed as a mere MS64+!  Worse, it is not a part of my Set Registry rated # 1.  Submit it for "reconsideration"?  Out of the question.  Like the teenager rebuffed for years after claiming he had found a 1943 copper Lincoln cent, I will keep it and never offer it for sale.  

I don't believe I have any Peace Dollars but am aware of their unique wear anomalies.  Your specimen is what I would call suspect subjectivity, particularly since is has been "certified."  The only saving grace is silver prices are rising. How does one draw the line between an coin that has not been cleaned -- and one with poor eye appeal?  I sympathize with you completely.

 

[Conrad57]

Thank you very much Quintus for your honest opinion.  I empathize with your situation as well.  I understand completely about subjectivity....  I'm not sure what looks like wear could actually NOT be wear because it's high relief and the die couldn't sit right.  I'm somewhat familiar with dies and casts.  It makes more sense to me that if anything,  the high point would be more profound with deeper hair lines than the lower points on the coin.  One or 2 people suggested that the higher points would be weaker.  That snyopsus just doesn't make one bit of sense to me!  Mind you, I'm new to this, thus the question,  but I'm certainly not that ignorant either.  

Thanks again

Conrad

 

[MarkFeld]

On 7/3/2020 at 9:14 AM, Conrad57 said:

  I understand, even though I'm kinda new to serious collecting, that coin grading is subjective.  I was looking on ebay for a 1921 Peace Dollar.  I ran across this coin (pictured), and I am wondering how this is an MS 65+.  I just had a few Peace dollars graded and my 1928 came back graded as a AU 55 with far more detail this 1921 MS-65+?  My coin reference for this is 5895487-001.  I'm not upset, but I am very curious.  

Thanks for your input; Frank

Your coin likely exhibited light wear, which should cause it to grade less than MS60. On the other hand, 1921 Peace Dollars are typically weakly struck and the pictured coin does not appear to display wear. Thus is should grade 60 or higher. While it can be difficult to distinguish one from the other, weak strike and wear are two very different things.

Edited July 14, 2020 by MarkFeld

[gmarguli]

First off, they are different type coins. The 1921 was struck in a higher relief and therefore hair detail is frequently missing. The other date Peace dollars were struck in lower relief. 

Looking at the 1921, it appears to have nice satiny luster, very few visible marks, and decent original toning that I suspect looks better in person. The hair does not exhibit any signs of any wear. Other than the rim ding, it looks like a very nice coin. 

Looking at your coin (which I have attached), while there may be more hair detail, there is clearly wear on several of the high points on both sides and the surfaces show numerous contact marks and hairlines consistent with light wear.

Your coins looks like a typical lightly circulated example. The 1921 looks like a very nice mint state example. 

[Just Bob]

17 hours ago, Conrad57 said:

Thank you very much Quintus for your honest opinion.  I empathize with your situation as well.  I understand completely about subjectivity....  I'm not sure what looks like wear could actually NOT be wear because it's high relief and the die couldn't sit right.  I'm somewhat familiar with dies and casts.  It makes more sense to me that if anything,  the high point would be more profound with deeper hair lines than the lower points on the coin.  One or 2 people suggested that the higher points would be weaker.  That snyopsus just doesn't make one bit of sense to me!  Mind you, I'm new to this, thus the question,  but I'm certainly not that ignorant either.  

Thanks again

Conrad

 

Minting with dies and casting are, as you know, two different things, and the results are quite different when there is insufficient volume of metal. When cast, the metal flows to the lowest point of the mould, and fills up from there.So, if the coin were cast, the high points of the coin - the lowest point of the die - would actually be more distinct. Being struck by dies is different. The high point of the design is the last part to fill.

Let me give an example: Imagine you rolled out some modeling clay to 1/8 inch thickness. Then you drilled a shallow hole in a wood block - say 1/2 inch diameter but only 1/8 inch deep. If you used a standard drill bit, the hole would taper to a point. If you pressed the block into the clay as far as you could, hole side down, and removed it, you would have a 1/2 diameter cone-shaped mound in the clay. The pressure exerted by pushing the block into the clay would cause the clay to flow upward into the recess, likely all the way to the tip of the cone. This represents your 1928 Peace dollar.

Now imagine you drilled the hole 1/4 inch deep, but did not change the thickness of the clay. When you press the block into the clay this time, chances are that the clay will not flow all the way up to the tip of the (now taller) recess. The tip of the clay "cone" would now be flat. This is your 1921 Peace dollar.