Does NGC Grade "unissued" Coins 0

[Markahorn]

Just wondering if anybody knows if NGC grades coins that were minted but never issued. Sometimes these coins find their way into circulation via nefarious routes. A good modern example is the 1943 irish half-crown and florin. Thanks for your help.

[Coinbuf]

I don't have any experience with this area, however my feeling is that if you have lots of documentation to prove when and why a coin was minted it may be possible.  The documentation would need to be airtight as any TPG would need to be able to corroborate that both the documents and coin are authentic.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Coinbuf

[VKurtB]

Sounds like a nation-specific legalistic issue. I own a 1964 Morgan dollar (a Moonlight Mint), but since it’s a fantasy restrike over another Morgan, no, NGC does not get involved. Then again, the one legal 1933 Double Eagle was graded by some company or other 

Edited June 10, 2020 by VKurtB

[RWB]

There are several well known and very expensive US coins for which there is no official "issue" information. Liberty nickels date 1913, Trade dollars dated 1884 and 1885, silver dollars dated 1804 and so forth. Coinage of many other nations have similar coins and patterns. The major authentication companies will examine and certify these. However, no TPG will authenticate counterfeits, such as the "1964 Morgan dollar" fake VKurtB mentioned...even if they comply with the Hobby Protection Act.

[VKurtB]

11 minutes ago, RWB said:

There are several well known and very expensive US coins for which there is no official "issue" information. Liberty nickels date 1913, Trade dollars dated 1884 and 1885, silver dollars dated 1804 and so forth. Coinage of many other nations have similar coins and patterns. The major authentication companies will examine and certify these. However, no TPG will authenticate counterfeits, such as the "1964 Morgan dollar" fake VKurtB mentioned...even if they comply with the Hobby Protection Act.

Not true, Roger. ANACS does indeed authenticate the entirety of the Moonlight catalog, as of the last time I looked, which is admittedly some time ago. I know he’s a well-documented sore point with you. Lots of contentious history, that hadn’t gone well for your attempts to litigate it.

[VKurtB]

Roger, you have a well-documented propensity to state a good many things as established fact that are merely your opinion, even here on this board. In most circumstances, I admire that sort of style, but here, you may be misinforming those with less experience. 

[RWB]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Not true, Roger. ANACS does indeed authenticate the entirety of the Moonlight catalog, as of the last time I looked, which is admittedly some time ago. I know he’s a well-documented sore point with you. Lots of contentious history, that hadn’t gone well for your attempts to litigate it.

Then ANACS is complicit in counterfeiting of they included items other than medals. If it looks like a legal tender coin but was not issued by the United States, it is a counterfeit - that is by definition and nothign else is needed for the trash to be correctly labeled and confiscated as counterfeit. The ONLY exception applies to reproductions that comply with the Hobby Protection Act.

Ask your counterfeiting friend to show you proof from the FTC or Justice Department or US Treasury Department stating that the so-called "fantasy strikes" comply with the US Code.

The fakes quack at every step they take and the buyers quack the same complicit ignorance and greed. They are the same as middle-Eastern fake sovereigns or quarter eagles, or Ford's pile of fakes, all of whom spout some sort of phony justification for cheating others.

Lastly, I have never attempted to litigate the matter and your assertion is a lie. Personally, I do not have the funds to do so; but would love to "hit the lottery" and hire the lawyers to help see every counterfeiter everywhere behind bars, and their ill-gotten gains confiscated.

Edited June 11, 2020 by RWB

[RWB]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Roger, you have a well-documented propensity to state a good many things as established fact that are merely your opinion, even here on this board. In most circumstances, I admire that sort of style, but here, you may be misinforming those with less experience. 

I am only presenting the truth. Get a lawyer and ask him/her to read the US Code relating to counterfeiting coins, plus the Hobby Protection Act. There is NO WIGGLE ROOM in counterfeiting law - even a blank token the weight and diameter of a nickel qualifies as counterfeit if it operates a vending machine. The legal wording is "likeness or similitude"  if it looks like or functions like a legal coin...composition is irrelevant.

I personally resent your ignorant and arrogant supposition that I might ever deliberately misinform any one here or elsewhere !

[kbbpll]

Do pattern and trial pieces count? They were never "issued", and NGC has graded lots of them.

[VKurtB]

7 hours ago, RWB said:

I am only presenting the truth. Get a lawyer and ask him/her to read the US Code relating to counterfeiting coins, plus the Hobby Protection Act. There is NO WIGGLE ROOM in counterfeiting law - even a blank token the weight and diameter of a nickel qualifies as counterfeit if it operates a vending machine. The legal wording is "likeness or similitude"  if it looks like or functions like a legal coin...composition is irrelevant.

I personally resent your ignorant and arrogant supposition that I might ever deliberately misinform any one here or elsewhere !

I frankly don‘t give the slightest rip about what you think about ANY subject, or what you resent. As someone who rescues feral cats, I resent the heck out of all your rants about them. So who cares about what you resent ? Certainly not I. By the way, I am legally trained (I write law) and my best friend is a licensed attorney and we both vehemently disagree with you. I am also aware that the Eastern District of Pennsylvania United States District Count and the Third Circuit found you not to be a credible expert witness. And yes, I do know the why’s of that.
 

By the way, I have personally witnessed you spouting pure BS at several ANA conventions. But then again, that does put you in fairly numerous company. 
 

I suggest you take up your personal “gripes” about Daniel Carr with ANA Chief Judge Joe Boling, who has said all Carr pieces ARE fine for even competitive exhibit, despite the fact that counterfeits are not. Therefore, Carr pieces are not counterfeits in the eyes of the ANA. 
 

You attacked Mr. Carr‘s membership with a spurious action with the ANA regarding his pieces and the ANA found AGAINST your position and FOR Mr. Carr’s. I am frankly surprised you continue to flap your gums over this.

Edited June 12, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

“Ask your counterfeiting friend to show you proof from the FTC or Justice Department or US Treasury Department stating that the so-called "fantasy strikes" comply with the US Code.”

if you had the slightest scintilla of legal knowledge, you’d know that none of the entities offer advisory opinions of anything. There needs to be a “case in controversy”, and there is not. Absence of prosecution is consent. You’re just (extraordinarily huge) butthurt about what Carr is doing.

 

FURTHERMORE, when a prosecutorial office does an investigation that does not lead to charges being filed, those investigation reports are sealed and not subject to public inspection, even by the subject of the investigation. They are exempt from FOIA requests. Ergo, no such “proof” is even ALLOWED to exist, despite your feeble protestations demanding them. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by VKurtB

[RonnieR131]

Is this a doubled die? Never mind.

[Crawtomatic]

8 hours ago, RWB said:

Personally, I do not have the funds to do so; but would love to "hit the lottery" and hire the lawyers to help see every counterfeiter everywhere behind bars, and their ill-gotten gains confiscated.

Just pointing out there's no lawyer needed to report suspicion.  Counterfeiting being a federal crime the State handles the prosecution.

So if you want to "drop a dime" on somebody that's the way to go.

https://www.secretservice.gov/contact/field-offices/

https://home.treasury.gov/services/currency-and-coins

https://www.occ.treas.gov/topics/supervision-and-examination/bank-operations/financial-crime/counterfeit-or-stolen-instruments/index-counterfeit-or-stolen-instruments.html#:~:text=Report Counterfeit Currency,Service website for more information.)

[VKurtB]

Spoiler

Just thought you’d want to see what the ANA said.