Saw this while watching RCTV and wanted to share it with the board. 1 1

[RWB]

On 4/29/2024 at 10:54 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I seriously doubt anyone would have a motive for seeking to pay him for a contrarion opinion.  To the contrary, his views delivered with complete confidence, if anything, inspires further consideration.

My examination was conducted with complete objectivity several years before the TPG ever saw the original bag. The opinion rendered was based on all the facts available, and only on facts. The modest compensation for the work was agreed to in advance, and was not predicated on any outcome. I have no knowledge about what happened after the report was delivered, or who might or might not have read it.

[I'll add that I don't do "directed opinion" requests. The total of available facts tell the story. A brief example is the article "KING OF MORGAN DOLLARS REVISITED" (2006). ]

Edited April 30 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/30/2024 at 11:18 AM, RWB said:

My examination was conducted with complete objectivity several years before the TPG ever saw the original bag.

Is this about that article/write-up you did for a 1928 Double Eagle bag sold on HA ?

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I am late to the party on this old thread, but I guess I just don't get it.  An original bag of 1964-D Kennedy halves is rare, but the coin itself is super common.  A quick eBay search shows a few FDOI coins listed in MS63 for $350-400... without the bag, they are <$40.  Am I paying the 10X because they came from this bag, and were handled poorly in the process?  All coins that I see for sale are not particularly attractive.  Is this all about having FDOI on the label?  If you crack this out, the value goes to nearly melt with an MS63 grade.

This all feels super gimmicky to me. What am I missing here?

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/30/2024 at 9:20 AM, zadok said:

...to summarize:...poster void of substantiate thought defaulted to obsessive babbling yet again....

🐓 :  Hey Q, mind telling me how this repetitious regurgitation contributes to "broadening the body of numismatic knowledge?"

Q.A.:  It doesn't and isn't intended to.  It's tolerated as coming from someone who emulates the infantile and immature.  I allow it as one would an impetuous adolescent. As records, if still maintained, will reflect, only ONE member had the intestinal fortitude and colossal gall to respond to an accusation of another by proclaiming, rather publicly, "I do not like you and have 'ignored' you!"  Word has it Edgar Jason Allan Poe chose to move his base of operations ATS.

If the malcontent were to embrace our Grand Master, whether he agrees with everything he does or not -- as a courtesy one member extends to another -- the equivalent of two reams of essentially passive-aggressive fluff, would evaporate overnight.  Me?  I haven't a worry in the world.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/30/2024 at 12:31 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

This all feels super gimmicky to me. What am I missing here?

I'm a bit lost, so I'll see what others post. 

But if it is about a bag for coins, sometimes they are worth nice $$$.  I thought it was about the article Roger wrote for a 1928 Double Eagle bag which he tied in to the story of the stolen 1928 Double Eagles (an entire bag of 500 Saints), though he never said it was THE bag that the stolen coins once resided in.

[GoldFinger1969]

Nobody has any thoughts on the lush premium being charged for the 2009 UHRs ? 

[RWB]

On 4/30/2024 at 12:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is this about that article/write-up you did for a 1928 Double Eagle bag sold on HA ?

No relation at all. Not the same subject or question.

The thread was about a bag of Kennedy halves that NGC "processed" into something they weren't.

Edited April 30 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

Note to the Membership

On occasion, responsible members will politely suggest members who post their own coins on existing threads, whether related or not to the Topic at hand, do so by creating a new topic so as not to cause confusion. 

Apparently, this is what happened here with the result that, I believe, four different presentations were posted, with intermixed comments, hence the ensuing confusion.

Bear in mind, this Topic was begun by @Walkerfan on May 20, 2020 -- nearly (4) YEARS ago.

The most recent RCTV presentation occurred recently the Topic of which was solely the MMIX Saint Gauden's Double Eagles which a dealer apparently clawed back from buyers who had bought them when they were initially released.  It stands to reason they would cost more that FMV.  I believe he snagged 15 all told, every one of which was graded MS-70.

The presenter (who I caught only because I was changing channels) provided a chart which indicated among other things the total minted as well as the total NGC-certified MS-70 at either 214 or 219.  I am not a collector but watched it for the uncommon information that was imparted.  Buyers were given the opportunity to lock in their buy by paying 1/3 now (roughly $1500.) with the balance to be paid in two more equal monthly installments.

The thread confused me as well until both the Neophyte Numismatist echoed exactly what I was thinking (deja vue) and RWB repeated a comment he first made on 8/13/2021.

[Let it never be said Henri Charriere is never inclined to be helpful when opportunity avails. Now, let the combatants bump gloved hands, and let's have a nice clean fight! ] 🤣

Edited April 30 by Henri Charriere
Clarification

[Henri Charriere]

RE:  (MMIX) 2009 G$20.  ULRA HIGH RELIEF        MS 70 DPL $6,895.

Curious as to how expensive one of these slabs as advertised on the RCTV Network, can go, I took a quick check of eBay.  I think it ought to be made clear that the TV examples were all slabbed by NGC, unaccompanied by official memorabilia such as boxes, CsOA, and plain slabs signed by Ed Moy.  They are there for the whole world to see for those so inclined.  As an honorary rank amateur thus far unopposed by anyone vying for my crown -- a crayon-colored dunce cap, my intention was to get a feel for the market GF1967 et al are indubitably intimately familiar with to determine how much of a profit margin there could possibly be for these artifacts.  The sales prices I saw, effective today, rose in increments from a low of $3.267 to a raw example listed at $4,400. The only NGC MMIX, Ultra High Relief, MS 70 DPL I saw offered for sale was the one as above-referenced for the as price indicated.

There is no question the UHRs MS 70s are rare -- and the DPL examples presumably rarer, as only 200-plus of the former have been certified to date, but I leave to the resident experts to forecast which way things will go in the future.  Personally, I do not see sizeable margins of profit here -- but those capable of being honest with themselves, at least privately, will concede, with the exception of a few unanticipated outliers, that's been the history of coin collecting from the beginning.  🐓  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/30/2024 at 8:39 PM, Henri Charriere said:

RE:  (MMIX) 2009 G$20.  ULRA HIGH RELIEF        MS 70 DPL $6,895.

DPLs by NGC are apparently rarer than PL's by PCGS.

The PL results in a 25-35% boost in price; not sure what the DPL does.  The near-$7K price you cited seems high, a relic from years ago when the prices were much higher.  I'm seeing recent sales the last few months on HA for ~ $3,200 (including bp).

Edited May 1 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/1/2024 at 12:19 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

DPLs by NGC are apparently rarer than PL's by PCGS.

The PL results in a 25-35% boost in price; not sure what the DPL does.  The near-$7K price you cited seems high, a relice from years ago when the prices were much higher.

You have a greater familiarity with this series than most people do and, as you are aware, pricing is beyond the control of eBay.   

(My thanks to @Walkerfan for indulging the intrusion on his Topic.)  

[GoldFinger1969]

Regardless of PL/DPL pricing...the MS-70's sold by RCTV for $4,700 are WAY above FMV. 

However, anybody who can't verify the price is just asking to be separated for their money.  At least they are getting a very nice coin and a good story, even if they are overpaying.  There are scams out there where you lose 80-100% of your money.  Here you're overpaying by about 25-35% or so.

Edited May 1 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 4/28/2024 at 3:01 PM, RWB said:

There's a big difference between "faith" and "fact." My opinion is the faith-based TPG "certification" is not based on facts.

YOUR opinion and 5 bucks will get you a Starbucks. Sooooo many of your opinions are out of step with the ENTIRE numismatic hobby. YOU are the outlier, not me. You are a classic narcissist. 

Edited May 1 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/1/2024 at 2:05 PM, VKurtB said:

YOUR opinion and 5 bucks will get you a Starbucks. Sooooo many of your opinions are out of step with the ENTIRE numismatic hobby. YOU are the outlier, not me. 

I don't know if the $5 will get him a Starbucks.  Stock getting hammered today because apparently people are balking at the prices !! 

Seriously, it's not a bad thing to be out of step at times.  We can debate how often.  I think we all have issues with various POVs in this hobby.

Personally, I like the debates and differences.  Makes things interesting.  Would any of us be posting here if every poster thought and posted the same as us ?  I wouldn't.

Edited May 1 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 5/1/2024 at 1:14 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't know if the $5 will get him a Starbucks.  Stock getting hammered today because apparently people are balking at the prices !! 

If you get the smaller one, not too exotic, and away from major cities, a fiver still gets you there. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/1/2024 at 1:14 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't know if the $5 will get him a Starbucks.  Stock getting hammered today because apparently people are balking at the prices !! 

Seriously, it's not a bad thing to be out of step at times.  We can debate how often.  I think we all have issues with various POVs in this hobby.

Personally, I like the debates and differences.  Makes things interesting.  Would any of us be posting here if every poster thought and posted the same as us ?  I wouldn't.

I consider his completely and utterly out of step opinions regarding grading to be disqualifying for being taken seriously on anything else. 

[VKurtB]

Want an example? A contemporary one? Try this. On page 19, second column, Richard Giedroyc, in Coin Clinic, the April 23 issue, Numismatic News. A reader asked :

”What standards were used when a coin grades were being established by the companies that would grade them?”

Richard Giedroyc responded in relevant part:

”It is generally agreed upon that the grade of a coin should be determined by the strike, state of preservation, luster, color, and eye appeal of that coin.”

Roger insists that only the state of preservation should be used in grading. That leaves ALL OF US in the position of accepting what is generally agreed upon in the numismatic hobby, or accepting Roger’s individual and unsupported opinion. I’ll take the former, thank you very much. 

Edited May 1 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB :

Two surprises... you guys can afford, ahem, c-o-f-f-e-e???  (I Refuse to buy water!)  No way I'm going to pay money for water. Can any of you armchair experts explain why every plastic water bottle, irrespective of brand or water source, is imprinted with an EXPIRATION DATE?

Now on to the matter at hand... As far as I am concerned, i do not subscribe to the herd instinct and, if I read Roger right, neither does he.  I like independent thinkers and their thoughts. Free thinkers expressing free thoughts.

Case in point: I will not prolong the matter involving theories between science, heliocentrism and charges of heresy brought against those who simply expressed their belief that the planets revolved about the sun resulting in actions taken against Nicolaus Copernicus (who died in 1543); Giordano Bruno who dared suggest Earth moves around the sun and the first to propose that the universe is infinite (executed/death by burning February 17, 1600; and Galileo Galilei who persisted in defying church authorities' edicts against heretical thinking and was also burned alive  only weeks later.

In another thread I promised Kurt I would buy him a tankful of gasoline for his Deusenberg irrespective of my POV on a range of issues.  I only ask he understand I am obligated to defend Rogers' views to express his thoughts within the framework of the Guidelines as is his privilege, whether I agree with them or not. He was not voted Numismatist of the Year solely on the strength of his good looks. 🤣

[VKurtB]

On 5/1/2024 at 4:33 PM, Henri Charriere said:

He was not voted Numismatist of the Year solely on the strength of his good looks. 🤣

No truer words have ever been written. But also, if you poll the body that made the appointment, they’d probably regret the decision. I have done such polling.

[Henri Charriere]

🐓:  Makes you wish you'd've kept your big mouth shut, doesn't it?

Q.A.:  To quote Stan Laurel: "It most certainly does."  That was the secret of Kurt's illustrious legislative success:  dispense with the heretics and zero in on the one thing that's sure to make short work of all the scholarship.  Now, if we manage to elicit one sad emoji from z, our humiliation will be complete.

🐓  :  Here, let me wipe all that egg off your face. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/1/2024 at 7:22 PM, Henri Charriere said:

the secret of Kurt's illustrious legislative success:  dispense with the heretics and zero in on the one thing that's sure to make short work of all the scholarship.

But it was the heretics for whom I worked. My only association in my entire life with that party was the 13 years of my employment. Our Chief Counsel was similarly positioned. In 1992 I ran AGAINST the man who hired me in 2008. 

Edited May 2 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/1/2024 at 2:18 PM, VKurtB said:

I consider his completely and utterly out of step opinions regarding grading to be disqualifying for being taken seriously on anything else. 

He's a prolific author, researcher, etc.  Even if you or others disagree with his position on grading, it shouldn't mean anything on other topics.

I disagree with lots of positions by everyone here -- but I gather lots more useful information from them on other stuff.  Should I disregard useful information because of a disagreement on something else ?

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/1/2024 at 2:29 PM, VKurtB said:

”It is generally agreed upon that the grade of a coin should be determined by the strike, state of preservation, luster, color, and eye appeal of that coin.”

Roger insists that only the state of preservation should be used in grading....

Well, to be philosophical about this, eliminate the state of preservation and you pretty much not need not bother with the rest. Some feel toning should be considered. Shall we ostracize them?  I believe one of our presidents of the U.S. effected carnal knowledge with his slave. Shall we melt all his nickels down? Zsa Zsa Gabor slapped a police officer in the face, obstructed governmental administration and paid a hefy price for her intransigence. Shall we all collectively burn Roger at the stake for emphasizing preservation and have him burnt at the stake for simply suggesting the Earth revolves around the sun?  It's too bad I am merely a schlub, because I do have strong feelings about a number of things which, luckily for me, cannot be expressed on this Forum. 🤣

[VKurtB]

On 5/1/2024 at 11:36 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

He's a prolific author, researcher, etc.  Even if you or others disagree with his position on grading, it shouldn't mean anything on other topics.

I disagree with lots of positions by everyone here -- but I gather lots more useful information from them on other stuff.  Should I disregard useful information because of a disagreement on something else ?

It should give you pause, yes. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/2/2024 at 7:40 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Well, to be philosophical about this, eliminate the state of preservation and you pretty much not need not bother with the rest. Some feel toning should be considered. Shall we ostracize them?  I believe one of our presidents of the U.S. effected carnal knowledge with his slave. Shall we melt all his nickels down? Zsa Zsa Gabor slapped a police officer in the face, obstructed governmental administration and paid a hefy price for her intransigence. Shall we all collectively burn Roger at the stake for emphasizing preservation and have him burnt at the stake for simply suggesting the Earth revolves around the sun?  It's too bad I am merely a schlub, because I do have strong feelings about a number of things which, luckily for me, cannot be expressed on this Forum. 🤣

Well, toning SHOULD be considered. The only question is how. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/2/2024 at 7:40 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Well, to be philosophical about this, eliminate the state of preservation and you pretty much not need not bother with the rest. Some feel toning should be considered. Shall we ostracize them?  I believe one of our presidents of the U.S. effected carnal knowledge with his slave. Shall we melt all his nickels down? Zsa Zsa Gabor slapped a police officer in the face, obstructed governmental administration and paid a hefy price for her intransigence. Shall we all collectively burn Roger at the stake for emphasizing preservation and have him burnt at the stake for simply suggesting the Earth revolves around the sun?  It's too bad I am merely a schlub, because I do have strong feelings about a number of things which, luckily for me, cannot be expressed on this Forum. 🤣

The question is whether quality of strike and luster matter to a grade (yes, they OBVIOUSLY DO, and virtually the ENTIRE HOBBY other than RWB agree on this). When an esteemed author and researcher uses OPINION to so obviously lead new collectors astray, he needs to be viewed with a jaundiced eye. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:11 PM, VKurtB said:

The question is whether quality of strike and luster matter to a grade (yes, they OBVIOUSLY DO, and virtually the ENTIRE HOBBY other than RWB agree on this). When an esteemed author and researcher uses OPINION to so obviously lead new collectors astray, he needs to be viewed with a jaundiced eye. 

I disagree then with Roger, especially on luster.  To his credit, his Saints book has the best definition and analysis of what causes luster that I have ever seen/read.

Personally, I like a researcher/author who gives equal time -- or some time -- to other POVs.  He also did it with the MCMVII HR Proof controversy. 

[Henri Charriere]

I am going to insist his remark was taken out of context or he was not quoted in totality.

Preservation is EVERYTHING!  It accentuates EVERYTHING!  Disagreeing with someone based on something someone else reported he said in relevant part without giving anyone here a precise quote, or even a chance to "s'plain" himself, smacks of un-Americanism.

Not exactly analogous to the matter at hand but a bridge token was posted on this Forum recently that was so corroded, the owner enlisted the membership for assistance in identifying it.  To the Forum's credit, two members were able to decipher the virtual hieroglyphics. (Nobody accused either of practicing numismatics without a license.)

Strong strike, original mint luster, and color are irrelevant in cases like that.  I repeat: IRRELEVANT! PRESERVATION IS KEY AND CONTROLLING. Not all grading characteristics are relevant in every case.

I do not and cannot allow anyone to dictate how any member is received or treated by the membership.

I don't need an open or concealed carry permit. Getting along with Roger is easy.  Just don't mention Breen or Penny in his presence.        

Edited May 2 by Henri Charriere
Die polishing.

[zadok]

On 5/2/2024 at 8:40 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Well, to be philosophical about this, eliminate the state of preservation and you pretty much not need not bother with the rest. Some feel toning should be considered. Shall we ostracize them?  I believe one of our presidents of the U.S. effected carnal knowledge with his slave. Shall we melt all his nickels down? Zsa Zsa Gabor slapped a police officer in the face, obstructed governmental administration and paid a hefy price for her intransigence. Shall we all collectively burn Roger at the stake for emphasizing preservation and have him burnt at the stake for simply suggesting the Earth revolves around the sun?  It's too bad I am merely a schlub, because I do have strong feelings about a number of things which, luckily for me, cannot be expressed on this Forum. 🤣

...to summarize:..only the "schlub" part is correct, rest just sick stuff....

[VKurtB]

On 5/2/2024 at 5:34 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I am going to insist his remark was taken out of context or he was not quoted in totality.

Preservation is EVERYTHING!  It accentuates EVERYTHING!  Disagreeing with someone based on something someone else reported he said in relevant part without giving anyone here a precise quote, or even a chance to "s'plain" himself, smacks of un-Americanism.

Not exactly analogous to the matter at hand but a bridge token was posted on this Forum recently that was so corroded, the owner enlisted the membership for assistance in identifying it.  To the Forum's credit, two members were able to decipher the virtual hieroglyphics. (Nobody accused either of practicing numismatics without a license.)

Strong strike, original mint luster, and color are irrelevant in cases like that.  I repeat: IRRELEVANT! PRESERVATION IS KEY AND CONTROLLING. Not all grading characteristics are relevant in every case.

I do not and cannot allow anyone to dictate how any member is received or treated by the membership.

I don't need an open or concealed carry permit. Getting along with Roger is easy.  Just don't mention Breen or Penny in his presence.        

You have OBVIOUSLY not been paying attention to what RWB has been saying over and over and over again on the subject of grading. I must wonder whether the failure to pay attention is intentional or accidental.