A cause of misaligned strikes 1 1

[RWB]

This 1893 letter from Philadelphia Mint Coiner William Steele provides specific insight into one cause of misaligned (one side) strikes. The press in question, made by Ferracute Company (Oberlin Smith), was used for striking Morgan dollars and double eagles.

Following Mr. Steele's letter is the response from Ferracute. The letter is addressed to Mark Cobb, Chief Clerk.

Mint of the United States at Philadelphia
Coiner’s Office

May 11, 1893
Hon. O. C. Bosbyshell,
Superintendent

Sir:
The thread in the holes in the cast iron head of the Ferracute coining press, where the long bolts run through the arch to hold the upper die, has torn out – this permits the die holder to move about and consequently the die does not strike the center of the planchet. The thread seems to have been too short in length to hold. A new head will have to be furnished and the Ferracute Company had better send here and see what is needed.
Very Respectfully
William Steele,
Coiner

Detailed illustrations and information on Ferracute's coinage press are available in Journal of Numismatic Research (JNR), Issue #1 available from Wizard Coin Supply. This issue also includes original Janvier reducing lathe patents in French with English translation by one of my daughters.

Edited April 27, 2020 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting.....I have to scour YouTube and see if I can see how an actual coin is struck.  Reading FMTM and the Saints book, I'm trying to visualize how a coin (planchet) goes from the big triangular feeder to a finished coin at times when reading about what makes a perfect coin, what leads to die failure, die cracks, other imperfections, etc.  It can be tough at times since nobody ever wrote Coin Making For Dummies. 

I'm picking up bits-and-tidbits from the Saints book....for instance, didn't realize (I should have) that the obverse and reverse are struck at the same time which at times can lead to the image or strike force on 1 side "bleeding through" to the other.  I may need to re-read FMTM again.  Of course, a video would probably be best to visualize all the things I/we read about but never saw 1st-hand.

Edited April 26, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

None of the old toggle presses exist in original configuration. All of them used by museums and counterfeiters have been extensively modified over the years. At a normal running speed of 80 silver dollars per minute, a slow motion video would be best.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 minutes ago, RWB said:

None of the old toggle presses exist in original configuration. All of them used by museums and counterfeiters have been extensively modified over the years. At a normal running speed of 80 silver dollars per minute, a slow motion video would be best.

That's about the speed at which Saints were made, too.

Did you ever see the 2009 UHR Saints book that came with the coin ?  They showed the different looks the "coin" appeared as when struck with different tons of pressure.  When it got too little, it looked like a melted golden chocolate coin.  As the strike pressure increased, the coin looks like the finished product we see for sale.  Very interesting.

[RWB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's about the speed at which Saints were made, too.

Did you ever see the 2009 UHR Saints book that came with the coin ?  They showed the different looks the "coin" appeared as when struck with different tons of pressure.  When it got too little, it looked like a melted golden chocolate coin.  As the strike pressure increased, the coin looks like the finished product we see for sale.  Very interesting.

Yes. I was there when they were first produced. There are several "progress strike" sets of medals available on the hobby market. They make eye-catching exhibits and also show the diminishing returns from multiple strikes - even with annealing between blows.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Yes. I was there when they were first produced. There are several "progress strike" sets of medals available on the hobby market. They make eye-catching exhibits and also show the diminishing returns from multiple strikes - even with annealing between blows.

I don't understand annealing (yet) but why would higher pressure and/or more strikes prevent the "melted gold" look I see on Page 39 of the 2009 UHR booklet ?  They show the progress from 15 metric tons to 55 metric tons.  It is fascinating.

Do I take it there is close to zero room for error if a coin gets struck more than once...that the metals must align perfectly....because if they are off by more than a micron, you will have doubling or double-images or other defects and maybe coins that don't pass muster ? 

Were you able to see the 2009 UHRs made because you were on the Citizen's Advisory board ?  Wow, that must have been something.  

 

 

[RWB]

Multiple strikes must be perfectly aligned.

There has to be enough striking pressure to force planchet metal into all parts of the die. If there is insufficient force the design might be incomplete or lack high-point detail and roundness. (See 1921 Peace dollars as a premier example.)

The gold effect you note is from incomplete metal flow.

[GoldFinger1969]

Any idea how much a press back in the late-1800's or early-1920's cost, Roger ?

I would expect those companies only made minting presses for governments.

[Just Bob]

Translation:

Dear Mr Steele,

Here are a few nuts and bolts and some tools. Fix it yourself.

Oh, and when you get finished, send our tools back. And pay for the return freight.

Have a nice day.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 minute ago, Just Bob said:

Translation:  Dear Mr Steele, Here are a few nuts and bolts and some tools. Fix it yourself. Oh, and when you get finished, send our tools back. And pay for the return freight. Have a nice day.

I would suspect that very few companies were authorized to sell printing press equipment to the mints.  So I'd expect a company like this to make sure the customer was happy. 

[RWB]

14 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Any idea how much a press back in the late-1800's or early-1920's cost, Roger ?

I would expect those companies only made minting presses for governments.

This bid summary shows the price range of large and small coinage presses in 1900. Manufacturers checked with the Mint Bureau before accepting coinage press orders from foreign governments or businesses. These were specialty machines and built to order.

Edited April 27, 2020 by RWB

[Conder101]

Since apparenty the loose bolts only affected the upper die holder this would not result in off-center coins.  It says the die (singular), does not strike the center of the planchet.  This would be resulting in mis-aligned die strikes not off-centers. (The die starts out centered over the planchet, but because of the stripped out bolts the die holder shifts and now the upper die is mis-aligned.)

[RWB]

Correct. I'll adjust my language to be clearer. Thanks!

Or maybe I could extend JustBob's interpretative transcription and say ---

"Hey, you numskulls at Ferracute:

"We bought this new press just months ago and it's already %*%%!!(&*%##-'d up royally. It's got stripped out bolts and now other %*##!@!@# stuff is breaking too! What gives, ? Huhhh? We gots some really strong boiys here and we wants action, not a bunch of youz measly tools and stuff !"

Edited April 27, 2020 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

This old thread made my day.  I can never get enough of this hand-to-hand combat.  Thank you, gentlemen, for a fascinating read. Good nite to all, and to all a good nite!  👍    🐓