Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[GoldFinger1969]

While we had our own Gold Rush in 1848 in California, worldwide gold production really surged in the late-1800's:  

"Beginning in 1887 there was a steady increase in the world's annual output of the yellow metal, and since I897 the production has been at a rate which would have caused dismay had it been predicted ten years before. In I890, according to statistics compiled by the director of the mint, the world's supply of gold available for monetary use was less than $4,000,000,000. In 1907 it exceeded $7,000,000,000. At the same time, based upon this gold, there was a gigantic expansion of banking credit. In the United States, bank deposits (including those of savings banks) increased between I890 and I907 from $6,000,000,000 to $19,000,000,000, and practically all of this expansion took place after I897. According to computations made by the comptroller of the currency the item of individual deposits in national and state banks increased from $7,000,000,000 in 1900 to $13,000,000,000 in 1907."

Edited May 16 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

The change in gold price to $35/oz stimulated an even greater surge in mining, including mines that were only marginal before 1934. The present open market price has had a similar effect although it is spread over a decade or more.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/15/2024 at 10:51 PM, RWB said:

The change in gold price to $35/oz stimulated an even greater surge in mining, including mines that were only marginal before 1934. The present open market price has had a similar effect although it is spread over a decade or more.

Biggest problem is that the low-hanging fruit has been plucked and there's been no great technological improvement in mining efficiency as there has been with oil production and fracking.

Throw in decades of lousy M&A and CAPX projects and shareholder destruction and it's no wonder gold production has stalled (peaked ?).  Let's see if a stustained price close to $2,400 (or more) boosts production.  Effects are usually HIGHLY lagged.

Edited May 16 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Chemical replacements for cyanide (i.e., thiosulfates) in bulk leaching have made passive extraction from certain tailings and low grade ores practical. (Several of the popular TV gold mining shows have mentioned this but it's not a dramatic or visually interesting process.)

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, you said: "...1927 witnessed the greatest export of U.S. gold coins since 1920. During the year $146,302,604 (equivalent to 7,315,130 double eagles) was shipped to foreign buyers according to Commerce Department figures. Most of this was in newly minted double eagles."

Did you construct this figure yourself...or did Commerce have this figure nice-and-tidy somewhere such that we can see if for multiple years in a row ?

[RWB]

On 6/3/2024 at 4:18 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you construct this figure yourself...or did Commerce have this figure nice-and-tidy somewhere such that we can see if for multiple years in a row ?

Commerce Dept and checking against Wall Street Journal reports. Those are the main sources for ExIm quantities. Some people use merely the "Gold" quantities, but I broke them down by form of the gold. (This is similar to the extravagant numbers Treasury published for gold turned in during 1933-34. When broken down by form of gold, most was in certificates from the public and bars from businesses. "Gold experts" still quote these inflated figures to show all the gold coins melted, when that was not the case.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/3/2024 at 4:27 PM, RWB said:

Commerce Dept and checking against Wall Street Journal reports. Those are the main sources for ExIm quantities. Some people use merely the "Gold" quantities, but I broke them down by form of the gold. (This is similar to the extravagant numbers Treasury published for gold turned in during 1933-34. When broken down by form of gold, most was in certificates from the public and bars from businesses. "Gold experts" still quote these inflated figures to show all the gold coins melted, when that was not the case.)

Is more of this in the book ? I don't recall seeing it for each year or mintmark.  Personally, I'd love to construct a chart year-by-year showing export totals for DEs....wouldn't mind seeing post-1933 turn-ins for gold (including DEs) vs. GCs, too.

Obviously, if you believe GC's were turned in this explains your very high figure for potential DE survivors.  

FASCINATING stuff ! 

Edited June 3 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 6/3/2024 at 4:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is more of this in the book ? I don't recall seeing it for each year or mintmark.  Personally, I'd love to construct a chart year-by-year showing export totals for DEs....wouldn't mind seeing post-1933 turn-ins for gold (including DEs) vs. GCs, too.

Obviously, if you believe GC's were turned in this explains your very high figure for potential DE survivors.  

FASCINATING stuff ! 

Data are almost entirely without relation to date or mint of coins -- often denomination is not mentioned.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/3/2024 at 5:27 PM, RWB said:

Data are almost entirely without relation to date or mint of coins -- often denomination is not mentioned.

So coins sent overseas in 1927 could be 1927 DEs and also whatever was stored from 1926 or 1925, etc......right ? 

[RWB]

On 6/3/2024 at 10:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So coins sent overseas in 1927 could be 1927 DEs and also whatever was stored from 1926 or 1925, etc......right ? 

Most us gold coins exported were DE's -- that's partly why so many were made -- but there were exceptions. One problem with Wall Street Journal, NY Times and other published media reports is misuse of the word "Eagle." Sometimes it meant a $10 coin and sometimes it meant a $20 with a large eagle on the back. This is a considerable difficulty when translating French newspapers and documents where "pièce d'aigle" (eagle coin), or "pièce d'aigle en or" (gold eagle coin) could mean either US $10 or $20. Context helps and sometimes totals in dollars or francs resolves the issue.

Edited June 4 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/4/2024 at 10:37 AM, RWB said:

Most us gold coins exported were DE's -- that's partly why so many were made -- but there were exceptions. One problem with Wall Street Journal, NY Times and other published media reports is misuse of the word "Eagle." Sometimes it meant a $10 coin and sometimes it meant a $20 with a large eagle on the back. This is a considerable difficulty when translating French newspapers and documents where "pièce d'aigle" (eagle coin) could mean either US $10 or $20. Context helps and sometimes totals in dollars resolve the issue.

Yes, I've seen that.  I saw a few articles where it said Eagle but then mentioned they were $20 coins.

Again....when one sees articles or official government releases that they shipped "x-amount" of gold in 1927 in the form of DEs...it could be 100% 1927's or it could be 1927's, 1926's, 1925's, etc.....doesn't mean that a shipment in any time period for a given year was ONLY from that year, right ?  Could be whatever they had in storage or those huge vaults in Philly or the various Assay Offices.

Edited June 4 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 6/4/2024 at 10:41 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

doesn't mean that a shipment in any time period for a given year was ONLY from that year, right ?  Could be whatever they had in storage or those huge vaults in Philly or the various Assay Offices.

Right. In the 1920s-30s nearly all came from the Philadelphia Mint to the NY Assay Office, then the transfer was handled by a large bank. The date on the coins was irrelevant. Shipments made in the first quarter of the calendar year were more likely to be of the prior year. After then, as Philadelphia produced more DE, one might expect more current year. It was mostly a FILO (front to back) fulfillment.

(NYAO was the only assay office to keep a large inventory of gold coins. The others had only enough coin and currency on hand to pay depositors who wanted cash.)

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/4/2024 at 10:37 AM, RWB said:

..... This is a considerable difficulty when translating French newspapers and documents ....

(I do not know if those unfamiliar with French know it or not but while a number, say,  80, in English, is simply "eighty," in French it is "quatre-vingt," or four- twent[ies]. How about 61?  In English, it's 61; in French, it's "60 and one," or "soixante et un.")

Okay, fun-time over...

Back on Track!

Thanks, GF1969, Roger!  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/4/2024 at 10:53 AM, RWB said:

Right. In the 1920s-30s nearly all came from the Philadelphia Mint to the NY Assay Office, then the transfer was handled by a large bank. The date on the coins was irrelevant. Shipments made in the first quarter of the calendar year were more likely to be of the prior year. After then, as Philadelphia produced more DE, one might expect more current year. It was mostly a FILO (front to back) fulfillment. (NYAO was the only assay office to keep a large inventory of gold coins. The others had only enough coin and currency on hand to pay depositors who wanted cash.)

You appeared to focus on The WSJ, but from my reading of The NYT it seems they had a full-time reporter who tracked gold movements on a daily basis as opposed to a general financial columnist who might peek in that direction every few days.  This surprised me.

Some of the articles were 1 paragraph only....others were longer articles....but pretty much every day they reported on gold movements and gold-related issues.  Very interesting. 

Edited June 4 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

MCMVII HR Articles Of The Day:  Found these From The NYT.....the premium the High Reliefs traded at led some people to think they had more than 1 ounce of gold...other articles on the difficulty of stacking and striking the High Reliefs and problems on the regular 1907 and 1908 coins.

 

Edited June 5 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Ah, yes! And...every edition had a new version of the sensational story. Plus - there was almost never a by-line.

It was fun to sift through all this debris and find the nuggets of truth - at least there were a few of them. The best laughs came from newspaper articles about models for the coins. "Mary Cunningham" worked at that job from 1859 through at least 1916 -- an ever aged a day.

[GoldFinger1969]

It can be tough to tell if they are talking about the MCMVII High Reliefs....OR.....the 1907 Arabic Saint.  They overlapped on the dates released as per the book.

I presume the stacking difficulties is germane to the HRs....but maybe there were problems with the 1907 Arabic.  And it's not clear if they meant stacking with like coins...or the earlier Liberty Heads.  I presume they meant stacking of the same coin type and same year.

Would 2 different Saints from different years (assuming both low-relief) stack ?  Or did coins only stack correctly with the same year and mint ?

[RWB]

On 6/5/2024 at 8:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I presume the stacking difficulties is germane to the HRs..

"Stacking" was a complaint everytime a design  was changed -- and sometimes during a design, such as the 1878 and 1879 silver dollars. The coins made n ice stable stacks, but they were not the identical height as the old design, therefor requiring closer attention by clerks. Coins from different years of the same design should pile to the same height for 20 pieces.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/5/2024 at 9:52 PM, RWB said:

"Stacking" was a complaint everytime a design  was changed -- and sometimes during a design, such as the 1878 and 1879 silver dollars. The coins made n ice stable stacks, but they were not the identical height as the old design, therefor requiring closer attention by clerks. Coins from different years of the same design should pile to the same height for 20 pieces.

The article above says the counts were "seriously innacurate" on the 1908-S Double Eagle.

Apparently, nobody liked to actually count, just create little towers of coins.

Edited June 6 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 6/5/2024 at 10:53 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The article above says the counts were "seriously innacurate" on the 1908-S Double Eagle.

Apparently, nobody liked to actually count, just create little towers of coins.

Yep. Clerks stacked in piles of 20. "Seriously inaccurate" would be a discrepancy of more that 1/2 coin thickness in a pile (that's how the Mint people defined it). Three part collars had "play" in them that normal reeded collars did not. This produced a different metal distribution resulting in thinner coins at the rim. Solution involved changing the planchet upset angle and improving collar tolerance. (RAC 1905-1908 discusses the different types of mechanical arrangements tested.)

[GoldFinger1969]

I have articles from The NYT that mention the composition of coins -- DEs down to Half Eagles -- being shipped and also the abrasion issue. 

I understand that the 500 coins moved alot when loaded-and-unloaded....but it's not like they were being moved daily for weeks on end....you take a bag of DEs from a NYC bank to a ship....you move it on the ship...unload it in Europe or the UK....move it to a London/European bank.....it sits in a a vault.....was there that much abrasion from that movement ?

[RWB]

Mints packed DE bags of 250 coins as tightly as they could to avoid movement, and these were put into wood kegs (or boxes) and surrounded with sawdust. Every vibration caused abrasion. Engine vibration of a ship, listing and tossing during an ocean voyage. Every lifting of a bag added more. Add to that the physical counting and weighing in Europe; or repackaging into $25,000 bags. (There was much more physical handling of goods then, than now.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/6/2024 at 1:52 PM, RWB said:

Mints packed DE bags of 250 coins as tightly as they could to avoid movement, and these were put into wood kegs (or boxes) and surrounded with sawdust. Every vibration caused abrasion. Engine vibration of a ship, listing and tossing during an ocean voyage. Every lifting of a bag added more. Add to that the physical counting and weighing in Europe; or repackaging into $25,000 bags. (There was much more physical handling of goods then, than now.)

Did you ever come across any stories or articles or reports of a bag of DEs that should be $5,000 in gold was actually off by 2% ?  5% ?

That's serious money, IMO.....a fraction of 1% except on a large sum is pretty minor.

 

[RWB]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you ever come across any stories or articles or reports of a bag of DEs that should be $5,000 in gold was actually off by 2% ?  5% ?

That's serious money, IMO.....a fraction of 1% except on a large sum is pretty minor.

 

No. Discrepancies were caught before bags left the Mints - that was part of the reason the US having a bag weight ($5,000 gold coin) as well as individual coins tolerances. Banks were often dealing with NY to London to NY "Gold Point" contracts where the difference in exchange was a just 2 or 3 cents. To profit, everyone had very tight requirements. Gold shipments of $500k to $1 MM were common merely for the exchange transaction. (This was all outside the Mint or Treasury sphere of business.)

[GoldFinger1969]

Now that I think about it......if they were so concerned about abrasion....why not put the coins in plastic tubes ?   Plastic was around since 1900 or so I believe but maybe they couldn't make the cylinders yet.

Perfect protection, I would think.    Even paper rolls would have provided some good protection I would think if plastic was too early in its development.

Edited June 7 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Now that I think about it......if they were so concerned about abrasion....why not put the coins in plastic tubes ?   Plastic was around since 1900 or so I believe but maybe they couldn't make the cylinders yet.

Perfect protection, I would think.    Even paper rolls would have provided some good protection I would think if plastic was too early in its development.

I don't know. Less handling the better? Use what the mint gives you?

[GoldFinger1969]

More Interesting NYT Articles Over The Decades:   An article noting Europeans opening up NYC accounts to save money or gold and other possessions in March 1939 because some people aren't convinced that Herr Hitler is to be trusted ....trusts include special provisions in event of war or an invasion without a formal declaration.....an article from early-1961 on Ike's attempts to prohibit Americans from holding gold overseas (not clear if they meant any holdings or just new additions).....an article on the MCMVII HR's being hoarded (you wonder if there are more high-grade examples to hit the TPGs and the public?).......finally, an article on some kids who sold $10 and $20 Eagles and Double Eagles in 1913 -- for $0.25 each !!  

Seems they found them at a local misers house and helped themselves and just sold them at a slight discount. 

Edited June 8 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 6/7/2024 at 9:14 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

More Interesting NYT Articles Over The Decades:   An article noting Europeans opening up NYC accounts to save money or gold and other possessions in March 1939 because some people aren't convinced that Herr Hitler is to be trusted ....trusts include special provisions in event of war or an invasion without a formal declaration.....an article from early-1961 on Ike's attempts to prohibit Americans from holding gold overseas (not clear if they meant any holdings or just new additions).....an article on the MCMVII HR's being hoarded (you wonder if there are more high-grade examples to hit the TPGs and the public?).......finally, an article on some kids who sold $10 and $20 Eagles and Double Eagles in 1913 -- for $0.25 each !!  

Seems they found them at a local misers house and helped themselves and just sold them at a slight discount. 

...something old, something new but not blue...the same is going on today both sides of the ponds n in both directions....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/8/2024 at 9:59 AM, zadok said:

...something old, something new but not blue...the same is going on today both sides of the ponds n in both directions....

Well, if you know anybody selling $20 Double Eagles for 25 cents, please give me a ring.

Hell, I'll even be willing to go higher, Zad.....

 

[zadok]

On 6/8/2024 at 12:09 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, if you know anybody selling $20 Double Eagles for 25 cents, please give me a ring.

Hell, I'll even be willing to go higher, Zad.....

 

...was referring to movements of funds n assets to other countries both from here n to here....