1851 gold $1 0

[MattMatt88]

Can anybody help me with an estimated grade this coin might get? I want to send it in but the value from one grade to the next is a big difference. I’ve looked at pcgs CoinFacts app and it looks very similar to this 64+ in the next post. Any help is greatly appreciated. The picture of it next to the nickel is just for size comparison. 

[MattMatt88]

[Just Bob]

Your coin does not appear to be uncirculated.

[MattMatt88]

10 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

Your coin does not appear to be uncirculated.

So only uncirculated coins should be sent to be graded?

[JKK]

1 hour ago, MattMatt88 said:

So only uncirculated coins should be sent to be graded?

That's not what he meant or said. What he means is that he doesn't think you'd get MS-64, or even MS-60. I think he's right. I suspect you'd get VF details, cleaned. VF might be a little high; F might be more suitable.

[MattMatt88]

Just now, JKK said:

That's not what he meant or said. What he means is that he doesn't think you'd get MS-64, or even MS-60. I think he's right. I suspect you'd get VF details, cleaned. VF might be a little high; F might be more suitable.

Ok bear with me here. I know what AU and MS are but what is VF and F?

[JKK]

10 hours ago, MattMatt88 said:

Ok bear with me here. I know what AU and MS are but what is VF and F?

No problem. It's refreshing to be teaching this rather than examining yet another damaged modern penny that is worth one cent. Numerically, coins grade from 0 (BA, or basal) to 70 (MS, top of the range, essentially a coin that is perfect even under exam with a 10x (right, guys?) loupe. MS starts at 60. G is 4-6, VG is 8-10, F (fine) is 12-15, VF (very fine, of course) is 20-35. EF begins at 40 and AU begins at 50. So if you assume that AU-58 is a coin that looks mint state (MS, of course) but some small amount of wear is noted that means it's not quite mint state, you'd be right. For VF (summarizing very broadly and briefly), one is looking for a good percentage of original detail, modest wear on the high points. A VF-30 or 35 would be an exceptional specimen that just falls short of EF-40; for example, a coin that is a lock for 40 but has a small edge ding (not allowed in EF).

So--and this is just my opinion, and I'm not a dealer nor a professional grader, haven't even gone to grading school--the surface of your little gold coin (and that's not a putdown; I think they are very cool and interesting) looks buffed or polished, not original, so I suspect it's been cleaned. Not sure how roughly. Detailwise, look at Ms. Liberty's hair. On your example, I see significant wear with detail loss, but it's not all gone. VF would be, according to my grading guide: beads at top of coronet partially separated (yes), LIBERTY complete (definitely), hair around face and neck noticeably worn but well outlined (seems to be), some star centers show details (I think I see details in two, that's 'some'); light even wear on legend and date (question is how light; let's say okay), only traces of leaf ribs are visible (exceeds this standard), bow knot is flat on high point (definitely).

So we have only one criterion where it's questionable at all, and minimally so. VF-20 cleaned seems reasonable. On close examination of the photos, I think F-15 would be too harsh, and that VF-30 would be pushing it (you'd need better hair strands and coronet bead separation). But that's part of how these grades are derived, with all the customary caveats about the unreliability of grading from a photo taken behind a flip's mylar, etc.

Edited February 11, 2020 by JKK

[MattMatt88]

16 minutes ago, JKK said:

No problem. It's refreshing to be teaching this rather than examining yet another damaged modern penny that is worth one cent. Numerically, coins grade from 0 (BA, or basal) to 70 (MS, top of the range, essentially a coin that is perfect even under exam with a 10x (right, guys?) loupe. MS starts at 60. G is 4-6, VG is 8-10, F (fine) is 10-15, VF (very fine, of course) is 20-35. EF begins at 40 and AU begins at 50. So if you assume that AU-58 is a coin that looks mint state (MS, of course) but some small amount of wear is noted that means it's not quite mint state, you'd be right. For VF (summarizing very broadly and briefly), one is looking for a good percentage of original detail, modest wear on the high points. A VF-30 or 35 would be an exceptional specimen that just falls short of EF-40; for example, a coin that is a lock for 40 but has a small edge ding (not allowed in EF).

So--and this is just my opinion, and I'm not a dealer nor a professional grader, haven't even gone to grading school--the surface of your little gold coin (and that's not a putdown; I think they are very cool and interesting) looks buffed or polished, not original, so I suspect it's been cleaned. Not sure how roughly. Detailwise, look at Ms. Liberty's hair. On your example, I see significant wear with detail loss, but it's not all gone. VF would be, according to my grading guide: beads at top of coronet partially separated (yes), LIBERTY compete (definitely), hair around face and neck noticeably worn but well outlined (seems to be), some star centers show details (I think I see details in two, that's 'some'); light even wear on legend and date (question is how light; let's say okay), only traces of leaf ribs are visible (exceeds this standard), bow knot is flat on high point (definitely).

So we have only one criteria where it's questionable at all, and minimally so. VF-20 cleaned seems reasonable. On close examination of the photos, I think F-15 would be too harsh, and that VF-30 would be pushing it (you'd need better hair strands and coronet bead separation). But that's part of how these grades are derived, with all the customary caveats about the unreliability of grading from a photo taken behind a flip's mylar, etc.

I appreciate the lesson JKK. That definitely helped a lot. 

[JKK]

9 hours ago, MattMatt88 said:

I appreciate the lesson JKK. That definitely helped a lot. 

No problem. Some basic broad guidelines:
Look to the high points for actual wear. Light wear is allowed in AU, but there has to be some mint luster. If the coin has no rims, and should, there might be strike weakness rather than high point wear.
To get EF, got to have at least some mint luster (look for flow lines) and no edge dings.
VF, a little more wear but whole design is looking good.

F, about half the detail is gone. On a wheatie, got to be able to see all the wheat lines (some weak).

VG, some of the detail has survived. On a lot of coins with LIBERTY in the band, have to be able to see three letters. Rims have to be complete for nearly every type. For a wheatie, for example, this requires ability to see half the lines in the wheat (they may be weak).

G, worn flat but mostly fully outlined. Some issues require complete rims.

AG, worn very flat with outlining issues and sometimes loss of rims.

FA, I think this requires you to be able to tell date and mint. Even heavier wear.

PO, I think you can tell what type of coin it is, but little else.

BA, you can tell it's a coin.

That's all from memory, approximate, and could be situationally overridden, but I think it's fairly close. When you get into MS grades, it gets very fussy about detracting marks, their locations, and so on. Most coins that most new collectors think are high uncirculated are in fact worn and cleaned; the key there is to learn to tell mint luster from shine.

Edited February 11, 2020 by JKK

[Rummy13]

I want to say thank you @JKK.  You are so helpful to us new collectors.  I know that I have read all of that in one of my books on cents, but unlike others people I don't always recall things.I don't collect gold coins so I know very little about them.

[MattMatt88]

Yeah JKK you described the grades that a guy fairly new to coin collecting could understand. I didn’t realize there was so many different grades. I appreciate all your insight. 

[Just Bob]

Take a look at this page to see examples of what Jonathan was describing:

CLICK ME

 

Click the little gray box on the left with the arrow to go to the lower grades.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Just Bob

[JKK]

7 hours ago, MattMatt88 said:

Yeah JKK you described the grades that a guy fairly new to coin collecting could understand. I didn’t realize there was so many different grades. I appreciate all your insight. 

Glad to help. As you may imagine, grading has some subjectivity, from person to person and year to year. Some criteria are difficult to localize and spot. And some people believe in net grades, as in they think a better side and a worse side average out. I don't think the pros hold with that. My own philosophy is that it has to meet all the criteria for the grade, and that's that, and if not, it's somewhere below. I can accept a case where a criterion is a matter of opinion, but not the notion that having one other criterion way exceed the standard can compensate for a criterion that just isn't there.

An ANA grading standards guide is easy to order and will walk you through every US coin type's grade spectrum. For coins like Morgans, where each MS grade depends partly on where the flaws happen to be, it shows pics of the prime and secondary focal areas. Makes it very easy to raise your education, especially if you start applying the standards to actual coins on a regular basis (happily, you just happen to have some).