Presidential review

[whoopig01]

Am Ithe only one not getting the warm fuzzies about this proposition? Presidential

[midwest]

Am Ithe only one not getting the warm fuzzies about this proposition? Presidential

 

How so whoopig?

[whoopig01]

All he will probably do is checkthe coins and say that they have not tightened up and the standards have not changed. Would you submit now if he says they have tightened the grading standards? I would really believe he is testing the standards if he offered to let NGC check the standards. It is just another ploy to get more money out of the submitter.

[Tradedollarnut]

It is just another ploy to get more money out of the submitter.

 

I thought it was free?

 

I would really believe he is testing the standards if he offered to let NGC check the standards.

 

[whoopig01]

His offer is free but the results are what I am saying will be skewed. The results of this test will determine what other people are going to do with their coins.

[Tradedollarnut]

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your argument. You're saying that his offer is all about money. You state that he'll come out and say they haven't tightened. How would this statement help them make more money?

[whoopig01]

If he says they haven't tightened, the view may be that pcgs has the more consistent grading standards and why you should submit more coins to us than anybody else. If they have tightened on the grading and he changes some grades or wants the standards loosened up, some people will send in coins for review or grading based on that statement trying to get higher grades. Either way they get more money from the coin community. I know I sound pessimistic about the situation, but I see it kinda like the fox watching the hen house. He does not have a totally objective perspective.

[Tradedollarnut]

If he says they haven't tightened, people are just gonna ignore it as 'that's what I expected him to say'. And people are going to send in the coins they feel are undergraded anyway, so I fail to see how him changing a few grades on review is going to result in a flood of submissions.

 

I do agree it's all about public relations, but isn't that a given?

[whoopig01]

I am not saying a flood of submissions. I think this "test" will sway some people into submitting to him instead of somebody else or get those who were not planning on submitting to do so. I don't have a problem with PCGS or NGC holders or graders but I think this is an improper way to do PR work.

[cpm9ball]

He's using a common practice that all retailers have been using for decades. It's called a "Loss Leader"!

 

Chris

[whoopig01]

I understand loss leaders and retail practices. I managed grocery stores for 8 years before going into business for myself. I am just not comfortable with this type of gimmick. His review cannot be totally unbiased. His company will be affected by the results.

[whoopig01]

techeff

Expert Collector

 

 

David, what about utilizing some outside/independent help/source(s) to check it out?

 

 

This is the ONLY way to truly determine whether PCGS has "tightened up" or not. Independence is very important in matters such as this!

 

-------------------------

www.techeff.com

 

 

My thoughts exactly!

[cpm9ball]

I understand loss leaders and retail practices. I managed grocery stores for 8 years before going into business for myself. I am just not comfortable with this type of gimmick. His review cannot be totally unbiased. His company will be affected by the results.

 

I agree!

 

Chris

[Tradedollarnut]

I would really believe he is testing the standards if he offered to let NGC check the standards.

 

Oh, this makes soooo much more sense!

[whoopig01]

And vice versa. We all do the same thing when we buy a coin or send it in for grading. Comparing one services grading to the other just to see where we will get the higher grade and watching for consistency like a hawk. Checking who might give us the upgrade or designation we want.

 

What would happen if a lot of PCGS slabs were submitted for crossover at NGC and started coming back 1-2 points higher ona consistent basis? Would it mean NGC was looser with its grades? Or PCGS tighter with theirs? Would you start to submit more to NGC to get the higher grade? What if it happened the other way around?

[gmarguli]

Am Ithe only one not getting the warm fuzzies about this proposition? Presidential

 

It doesn't give me any warn fuzzies. I don't believe this will solve any of the problems at PCGS. Does anyone really expect more than the occasional one to be upgraded? It'd be stupid for him to change the grade on a bunch of coins as that would be a signal to the marketplace that PCGS couldn't be trusted to be consistent. However, if most come back the same grade, but one or two here and there upgrade, PCGS looks like they are consistent, DH is the King for fighting for the little guy, and the submitters are the suckers for believing it.

 

My guess is that 97%+ of the coins submitted come back the same grade.

 

A real test would be sending these coins raw to people who DH thinks have "world class eyes" and see what they grade the coins. If they graded the coins the same as PCGS, that would be very telling. Same if they graded them differently.

[midwest]

Well this is an intresting move.Really quite an intresting move.

 

Ok now the fact is he has a vested intrest however we dont know what it is.From the posts you can see that many peoples opinions abound about what intrest he has.

 

Now CLCT is a publicly held company and he is if I am not mistaking the president/ceo.Also I believe taht isn't a person in his position supposed to do what will be best for stock holders?Now in my opinion if I was a stockholder I would want an independent firm to look into this.

 

Would you trust an accounting company to actually investigate cooking the books themselves?NO Ypu would want an independent third party.Now that is a bad anology but I think yall get the picture.

 

He needs an independent third party to check out this allegation of undergrading.I ALSO think NGC needs to do the same thing as it seems people believe they are tightening up too.

 

Now I think that really all four services need to check and make sure they are grading consistently.Therefore all four services really need an independent third party to check.

 

there you go my opinion.

[James_OldeTowne]

As an aside, I just looked at the PCGS thread. Here are some of my comments:

 

(((they have to be graded between 5-17 and 6-1-05))) Anybody have a clue as to why this is so? Was there some renegade grader lurking about the halls of PCGS during those dates? Was sunspot activity particularly active at that time? Were there subliminal earthquakes occuring in the southern California area then?

 

(((David, what about utilizing some outside/independent help/source(s) to check it out?))) Does this make any sense? How would an outside source be so intimate with PCGS standards as to be able to help out?

 

Here's the weirdest one:

(((Didn't take long for this to hit the page over across the street....

 

sheeesh! Some people need to get a life!

 

I guess things are so boring over there that some people need to be over here, basically hide, then run over there to post about things.))) It sounds like Bochiman is the one who needs to get a life. After all, he's over HERE monitoring our supposedly "boring" board himself, just to report what we're discussing! Anyone else find this really ironic?

 

(((This kind of action is the reason PCGS will remain the number one grading service in the hobby. Kudos. )))

 

(((PCGS vs. NGC This is the numismatic version of the Yankees vs. Red Sox complete with rival fans on both sides!))) How did it suddenly become a "PCGS vs NGC" ordeal? Is NGC being accused of screwed up grading?

 

James

[midwest]

(((David, what about utilizing some outside/independent help/source(s) to check it out?))) Does this make any sense? How would an outside source be so intimate with PCGS standards as to be able to help out?

 

I would say the firm could get an EX PCGS grader or two and I believe that would work.Although they would have to check them and make sure they have no vested intrest.

[Leothelion]

Someone may have already mentioned it but since there has been alot of drift flying about PCGS getting tighter with their grading standards, doesn't this equate to fewer submissions? Because we know this is what's happening, isn't the outcome obvious!

 

Leo

[cpm9ball]

And vice versa. We all do the same thing when we buy a coin or send it in for grading. Comparing one services grading to the other just to see where we will get the higher grade and watching for consistency like a hawk. Checking who might give us the upgrade or designation we want.

 

I guess I'll always be the oddball! I'm less concerned with "getting the grade" or coin values. I'm just trying to enjoy the hobby. When submitting to a TPG, I have just three words in my vocabulary that express how I feel...........happy, happier and happiest. I choose to submit to NGC because they have always been friendly, courteous and helpful to me.

 

Let's put it this way............If you are married, and it is the most perfect, blissful marriage there could ever be, "Why would you want to have an affair?"

 

Chris

[Oldtrader3]

Here I go go being practical again, but I dislike these games. Without a statistically tested standard range for each grade, that is agreed upon by the top(2) TPG's, this challenge is all word games and nothing more. This is all resembles playground, I'm tougher than you are, nonsense. I'm just glad that NGC management rises above this hyperbole.

[GoYankees]

(((PCGS vs. NGC This is the numismatic version of the Yankees vs. Red Sox complete with rival fans on both sides!))) How did it suddenly become a "PCGS vs NGC" ordeal? Is NGC being accused of screwed up grading?

 

James

 

James, I found humor in the parallel. NGC and PCGS are business rivals with a strong following and message boards (MBs) on both sides.

 

Based on what people of both "sides" have posted over the last year and how some have reacted, it just reminds me of how Yankees and Sox fans have acted toward each other on their MBs. It wasn't meant to be a critique of either company's grading. In fact, since the beginning of this year, most of my submissions go to NGC, a few to ANACS, and none to PCGS.

 

Due to their glut of plastic in the sight unseen market and their Wall Street status, I have PCGS playing the role of the "Damned Yankees". I have NGC being the Red Sox, a team that is currently the defending WS Champs and w/o the "$200mil payroll" (yes, it galls me to type this. ).

 

Other parallels...

 

George Steinbrenner = David Hall

- Love him or hate him, he's a TPG "owner" who's in the spotlight on MBs. Watch what you say, or you're fired (banned).

 

Mike Farrone = Mike Mussina

- "Small market" ANACS couldn't compete with "big market" PCGS in "free agency".

 

 

This was meant to be taken in good fun, not to be critical. If others have taken it the wrong way I apologize.

[midwest]

I always thought of it more as a coke and pepsi thing

[cpm9ball]

I always thought of it more as a coke and pepsi thing

 

More like Geritol and ExLax!

 

Chris

[EZ_E]

Why not take the offer at face-value and view it as a business decision.

 

Most collectors already know that the TPGS's tighten and loosen their standards periodically. Perhaps, David Hall is making an adjustment for one of those swings to keep his customers happy. Enough outrage should cause any businessman to reconsider his previous decisions if revenue is being lost.