Unplated 1943 Cents? Not Unprocessed, Originally Unplated

[kidrootbeer]

1 hour ago, WoodenJefferson said:

Dow yellow-top Heavy Duty Oven Cleaner on a 1943 zinc coated coin? This must be a joke, as lye reacts with zinc producing hydrogen gas...that is a chemical reaction.

maybe, but it's not on there for any length of time to produce any reaction

[kidrootbeer]

this coin was exposed to Oven Cleaner:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/lincoln-cents/small-cents/1915-1c-pr67-brown-ngc/a/454-523.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

[kidrootbeer]

as was this one:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/indian-cents/small-cents/1880-1c-ms64-brown-pcgs-pcgs-population-91-15-ngc-census-88-61-cdn-60-whsle-bid-for-problem-free-ngc-pcgs-ms64/a/131717-27744.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

[WoodenJefferson]

2 hours ago, allmine said:

this coin was exposed to Oven Cleaner:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/lincoln-cents/small-cents/1915-1c-pr67-brown-ngc/a/454-523.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

Well this begs the question, were you the one who applied the oven cleaner or know who did it prior to submission? In other words, how do you know?

[kidrootbeer]

2 hours ago, WoodenJefferson said:

Well this begs the question, were you the one who applied the oven cleaner or know who did it prior to submission? In other words, how do you know?

see the Blue-ish sheen (sometimes appears as Silver)? That's removable, but it wasn't done. That's usually a reaction between traces of Blue Ribbon or CARE and oven cleaner. Magenta/Blue in tandem is also a hallmark. Silver, Nickel coins too. Never Gold! Think about it: the lye gets between the luster grooves, and cleans 'em out. Like getting new batteries for your Hearing Aid, or something. Does not work on circ coins, even XF if there is NO luster present.

[physics-fan3.14]

Allmine, what about those coins makes you suspect oven cleaner? Did you do it yourself? What indications are there? 

Both of those coins appear to have been treated with MS-70, however - especially the MPL. That blue color is suspicious. 

[kidrootbeer]

4 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Allmine, what about those coins makes you suspect oven cleaner? Did you do it yourself? What indications are there? 

Both of those coins appear to have been treated with MS-70, however - especially the MPL. That blue color is suspicious. 

oh they were Oven Cleanered; of that I am certain.

[physics-fan3.14]

Just now, allmine said:

oh it was Oven Cleanered; of that I am certain.

Yes, you said that already. But I want to know why you are certain. 

You mention the magenta and blue colors, but I've always associated those with MS-70. 

[kidrootbeer]

there was a guy whom I knew, a dealer, who made a good side living breaking out PR63-4 Indians and having them come back PR65-7. 

[physics-fan3.14]

Can you show us before and after pictures of some coins which have been oven-cleanered? 

[kidrootbeer]

1 minute ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Yes, you said that already. But I want to know why you are certain. 

You mention the magenta and blue colors, but I've always associated those with MS-70. 

a) because I knew a Kitchen Magician, and was privy to his work. Besides, the TPGers are anathema to traces Care, Blue Ribbon, etc on coins and will flag them all day long. No so with oven cleaner
b) that may be, but I know OC when I see it

[kidrootbeer]

3 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Can you show us before and after pictures of some coins which have been oven-cleanered? 

see page 1 for the 1847 and 1854. Trying to find before pics of the 54, but it was bought as XF with Luster

[kidrootbeer]

I think I have a grungy silver coin around here, somewhere... and a slightly dull toned 1950 Nickel, with what looks like nice dishy fields under the toning

[physics-fan3.14]

6 minutes ago, allmine said:

see page 1 for the 1847 and 1854. Trying to find before pics of the 54, but it was bought as XF with Luster

The pictures of the 1847 aren't working. 

And I saw the pics of the 1854 - but I really need to see before and after comparison pictures to try and understand the effect this magical cure-all is having on these coins. 

[kidrootbeer]

4 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

The pictures of the 1847 aren't working. 

And I saw the pics of the 1854 - but I really need to see before and after comparison pictures to try and understand the effect this magical cure-all is having on these coins. 

PMed you pics of the 1847; I'm afraid the Before pics of the 1854 are lost to Time. But, it did sell for 150.00 so you can guess what it looked like

[numisport]

21 hours ago, allmine said:

I buy it all the time; it's used to degrease metal parts, remove gunk from metalwork, porcelain, glass, etc. It removes yuck from jewelry
I'm inured to it so it doesn't bother me

This stuff will discolor 300 series stainless steel and must not ever be used on coins of any value.

[kidrootbeer]

28 minutes ago, numisport said:

This stuff will discolor 300 series stainless steel and must not ever be used on coins of any value.

sez you
and you base that on... what, exactly
oh, and all Major TPGers disagree with you

[WoodenJefferson]

11 hours ago, allmine said:

tsez you
and you base that on... what, exactly
oh, and all Major TPGers disagree with you

So....are you saying TPG condone the use of a toxic oven cleaner on coins before being submitted or are you saying they cannot detect the product if it is used? What about the 'Sniffer' across the street? The 1880 cent is in a Secure Shield slab meaning it went through the detection process. This is all very confusing, getting muddled.

[RWB]

To return to the original subject....

The question was if a certain 1943 cent lacked zinc coating. The OP offered that this coin and a 1943 reference coin had been treated with oven cleaner containing sodium hydroxide and other chemicals.

Given this chemical treatment, it is impossible to assess the original surfaces of the coin in question.

Maybe another example of an "unplated 1943 cent" will appear and it can be examined before alteration.

[WoodenJefferson]

The zinc coating when applied was .005 in thickness (five ten thousandths) which I would assume would be compressed even further during the striking process. Question, if the zinc were to be stripped on a plated steel cent, how much detail would the bare steel retain? Would it not appear as worn out dies? 

[kidrootbeer]

36 minutes ago, RWB said:

To return to the original subject....

The question was if a certain 1943 cent lacked zinc coating. The OP offered that this coin and a 1943 reference coin had been treated with oven cleaner containing sodium hydroxide and other chemicals.

Given this chemical treatment, it is impossible to assess the original surfaces of the coin in question.

Maybe another example of an "unplated 1943 cent" will appear and it can be examined before alteration.

not even close, RWB... do some research yourself before making blanket statements you cannot "back-up'

[kidrootbeer]

3 minutes ago, WoodenJefferson said:

The zinc coating when applied was .005 in thickness (five ten thousandths) which I would assume would be compressed even further during the striking process. Question, if the zinc were to be stripped on a plated steel cent, how much detail would the bare steel retain? Would it not appear as worn out dies? 

nope; you cannot "peel off" the Zinc without leaving a battle-scarred surface

[numisport]

13 hours ago, allmine said:

sez you
and you base that on... what, exactly
oh, and all Major TPGers disagree with you

Sez me who has 18 years working with commercial food machines whose manufacturers say don't use oven cleaners to clean stainless. Also what TPGer would recommend cleaning any coin with any cleaner ?

[kidrootbeer]

1 hour ago, numisport said:

Sez me who has 18 years working with commercial food machines whose manufacturers say don't use oven cleaners to clean stainless. Also what TPGer would recommend cleaning any coin with any cleaner ?

didn't say that they recommend it, per se, but they slab a whole lot of them

and, I'll remind you, "Stainless" is not a Noble Metal

[kidrootbeer]

4 hours ago, WoodenJefferson said:

So....are you saying TPG condone the use of a toxic oven cleaner on coins before being submitted or are you saying they cannot detect the product if it is used? What about the 'Sniffer' across the street? The 1880 cent is in a Secure Shield slab meaning it went through the detection process. This is all very confusing, getting muddled.

again, I didn't say that TPGers Recommend the practice, but they certify a whole lot of them.
I've known about the practice since the late 1960's, when I saw a whole case of $35.00 Proof Indians, and all were Blue/Magenta with dazzling luster
Shield? well, I guess it failed; and no: it cannot be detected
I could tell you how "the sniffer" is compromised, but...

 

[numisport]

We have strayed from original topic. So for any new hobbyists out there please do not alter the surfaces your coins. This is commonly referred to as 'doctoring' in the business. NCS offers high grade conservation services which have suited me well a few times.

[kidrootbeer]

4 minutes ago, numisport said:

We have strayed from original topic. So for any new hobbyists out there please do not alter the surfaces your coins. This is commonly referred to as 'doctoring' in the business. NCS offers high grade conservation services which have suited me well a few times.

definitely not for a "newbie"
I've seen many NCSed coins in holders; they're usually pretty easy to discern

"Doctoring?" hardly; more like Conservation

[RWB]

2 hours ago, allmine said:

not even close, RWB... do some research yourself before making blanket statements you cannot "back-up'

I support every word I wrote. You admitted to chemically treating the coin with oven cleaner containing sodium hydroxide. Therefore no objective determination can be made - by anyone, anywhere.

If there was once something of potential interest, it is now ruined.

[kidrootbeer]

2 minutes ago, RWB said:

I support every word I wrote. You admitted to chemically treating the coin with oven cleaner containing sodium hydroxide. Therefore no objective determination can be made - by anyone, anywhere.

If there was once something of potential interest, it is now ruined.

nope; blanket statements like that do you no good
Green Eggs and Ham, sir
I would guess that this is all *new* to you, and I understand your recalcitrance, 
but it has no factual bearing on your argument

[RWB]

Just now, allmine said:

nope; blanket statements like that do you no good

My statement stands as written.

You have ruined whatever interesting coin you might have had. That is your personal loss, and a loss to the hobby of potential knowledge.

Nothing more need be said to you.