CAC question

[BAJJERFAN]

On 4/5/2017 at 7:46 AM, toyonakataro said:

I understand that. But as a buyer, it would have been helpful to know if CAC approved the coin when buy a coin sight unseen.

It would be equally helpful to a buyer to know how many times a coin has been submitted to a TPG before it finally maxed out on grade, but don't expect any of them to tell you.

[physics-fan3.14]

20 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

I've never seen anyone claim that "CAC will solve all our problems". And by the way, CAC will sometimes knowingly sticker cons that they previously rejected. They freely admit that they're imperfect.

Mark, I am clearly resorting to sarcasm and hyperbole here, but I don't think my description is too far from things I have heard people say before.

[MarkFeld]

14 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Mark, I am clearly resorting to sarcasm and hyperbole here, but I don't think my description is too far from things I have heard people say before.

Why not try to make your points without resorting to sarcasm and hyperbole?

[BillJones]

Mark, you work at Heritage. "Anayalst" ATS says that Heritage is shipping almost all of the "important" coins that sell for $1,000 or more to CAC for acceptance or rejection. Is this true? If is there are a lot of coins in their auctions with no CAC stickers. Have most of those coins been rejected by CAC?

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, BillJones said:

Mark, you work at Heritage. "Anayalst" ATS says that Heritage is shipping almost all of the "important" coins that sell for $1,000 or more to CAC for acceptance or rejection. Is this true? If is there are a lot of coins in their auctions with no CAC stickers. Have most of those coins been rejected by CAC?

Bill, I'm tied up at the moment, but will reply with a comprehensive answer as soon as I'm able.

 

 

 

 

[Raisethis2]

The idea that CAC has seen almost every graded coin in a given class of coins is just stupid. I'd bet it's not even close. 

It's obvious to me that Bill Jones is not a CAC fan and never will be a CAC fan and it looks to be tied to valuation of what he collects. What I think Bill fails to see is that there are others who collect the exact same type of coins who aren't of the same grading skill level and so they prefer to see a bean on their coins to ensure (as best they can) that the coin is not low for the grade assigned. 

I think the reality is that his un-submitted coins are what they are. If they are high or low for the grade he'll learn that when he goes to sell.  The buyer pool might be just a bit smaller but it's unlikely the tough dates and high for the grade coins would get brutalized. 

Those of us who collect widgets and aren't master graders appreciate the second opinion of one of the worlds sharpest graders. There's no crime in that. 

[MarkFeld]

2 hours ago, BillJones said:

Mark, you work at Heritage. "Anayalst" ATS says that Heritage is shipping almost all of the "important" coins that sell for $1,000 or more to CAC for acceptance or rejection. Is this true? If is there are a lot of coins in their auctions with no CAC stickers. Have most of those coins been rejected by CAC?

Bill, I think the writer you quoted does a great job writing about and analyzing rare coins and auctions. However, if he stated things as per your post (which I have copied above) I would describe it as a mischaracterization.

I don't know the numbers and there are various variables involved - which I will get to in a moment - but I would guess that far fewer than 50% of our consigned coins valued at $1000 or higher are submitted by us to CAC.

Of course, some coins have been submitted to CAC by our consignors or other parties, before we receive them for auction.

Some consignors request that we submit particular coins to CAC.

Other consignors request that we review their coins and make suggestions regarding submissions to CAC. Our recommendations are based on a combination of what we think the chances of success are, as well as potential value difference, in the event that a coin stickers. Often, one or both of those considerations cause us not to submit certain coins to CAC.

In general, dealer consignors are probably more likely than collector consignors to have submitted coins to CAC, before consigning to us.

Coins of certain types and/or values are more likely than others to be submitted to CAC

In a typical auction, many coins are consigned just prior to or at the consignment deadline. Consequently, we do not have time to submit them to CAC.

[numisport]

2 hours ago, BillJones said:

Mark, you work at Heritage. "Anayalst" ATS says that Heritage is shipping almost all of the "important" coins that sell for $1,000 or more to CAC for acceptance or rejection. Is this true? If is there are a lot of coins in their auctions with no CAC stickers. Have most of those coins been rejected by CAC?

I think I understand exactly what you mean. Heritage lots I tracked last auction did not please me and most were not CAC. Don't take this the wrong way but one proof Merc. had horrible toning and was CAC. But by inference one might think that non-CAC relatively expensive coins might not be A or B quality. Am I way off here ?

[numisport]

9 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Bill, I think the writer you quoted does a great job writing about and analyzing rare coins and auctions. However, if he stated things as per your post (which I have copied above) I would describe it as a mischaracterization.

I don't know the numbers and there are various variables involved - which I will get to in a moment - but I would guess that far fewer than 50% of our consigned coins valued at $1000 or higher are submitted by us to CAC.

Of course, some coins have been submitted to CAC by our consignors or other parties, before we receive them for auction.

Some consignors request that we submit particular coins to CAC.

Other consignors request that we review their coins and make suggestions regarding submissions to CAC. Our recommendations are based on a combination of what we think the chances of success are, as well as potential value difference, in the event that a coin stickers. Often, one or both of those considerations cause us not to submit certain coins to CAC.

In general, dealer consignors are probably more likely than collector consignors to have submitted coins to CAC, before consigning to us.

Coins of certain types and/or values are more likely than others to be submitted to CAC

In a typical auction, many coins are consigned just prior to or at the consignment deadline. Consequently, we do not have time to submit them to CAC.

Thanks for clearing this up Mark. Also its known that certain coins carry a considerable premium in CAC verified form. Just another reason to seek that 4th party opinion.

[toyonakataro]

3 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

 

I would guess that far fewer than 50% of our consigned coins valued at $1000 or higher are submitted by us to CAC.

Thank you for the clarification. I was about to make another thread related to CAC

[BillJones]

Thank you for clarifying the issue with respect to Heritage Auctions and CAC, Mark.

[Fiddlehead]

I've found that some, maybe I hope most, of the dealers I buy from are honest about whether or not a certain coin - or most or all of their coins - have been sent to CAC.  I always ask! It's remarkable to me how many dealers are honest about it and say, yes, they submitted this coin and it didn't sticker - and others who acknowledge that they send nearly everything they have to CAC - or that they never submit to CAC - and in those cases you don't have to ask - you know right off what the circumstance is.  I find this very helpful when I'm trying to decide about a particular coin - and I tend to trust the dealers who I believe are honest about it.  Sometimes I will buy coins knowing they didn't sticker and sometimes I buy them knowing I might have a chance of getting a sticker.  I've had pretty luck both ways.  

[numisport]

Okay you dealers that might be listening, most of you probably wouldn't want to tie up your inventory by sending coins to CAC would you ? 13.50 plus registered mail plus time cuts away margin right ? Probably only for coins over 1000.00 if even that.

[Fiddlehead]

10 hours ago, numisport said:

Okay you dealers that might be listening, most of you probably wouldn't want to tie up your inventory by sending coins to CAC would you ? 13.50 plus registered mail plus time cuts away margin right ? Probably only for coins over 1000.00 if even that.

Yes - I'm sure - I usually don't ask about CAC for lower cost coins - I should have mentioned that my experience in that rehlm is primarily regarding pieces in the $1000 to $10,000 range - where for me CAC is both more useful and more relevant as I don't have enough experience or expertise to wing it all that much.