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pcgs is declaring1896-o, 1900-o and 1902-o "micro O" varieties as COUNTERFEIT!

Started by bigd5,

21 posts in this topic

Elbesaar

Elbesaar

Posted
Posted

Next thing we'll find out, is that the micro O Barber coins are not legit either.

 

So much for for my 1905-O Micro O dime in NGC 58 and my 1892-O Micro O half in ANACS 55.

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gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
Posted
I was trying to determine the NGC population for these coins this morning and it appears NGC has pulled them from their census list. Can someone confirm that as it would appear to be corroboration of the PCGS determination.

 

When I heard the story I looked in the NGC Census and didn't see any listed. I posted the question about them in the Ask NGC forum, but it hasn't been answered yet.

 

Looking thru the Heritage Auction Archives doesn't reveal any NGC graded examples being sold. Did NGC grade these?

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Hoot

Hoot

Posted
Posted
I don't understand why a contemporary counterfeiter would go to the trouble of creating three obverse dies with different dates. It just doesn't make sense!

 

One of the interesting things about the PCGS article is that they state that this was not likely from a contemporary counterfeiter and was done strictly for the monetary gain associated with the the price of silver at the time vs. the face value of the coin. They also indicate that the coins were likely artifically "handled" so that they blended well with their counterparts in circulation at the time. So, these were not counterfeited for the numismatic value potential.

 

Hoot

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cpm9ball

cpm9ball

Posted
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Right - so why go to the trouble of creating three obverse dies when one would do the job just as well?

 

Good point! Counterfeiters will stop at nothing to make something look original, even older. Did anyone see the Discovery Channel story on the casino gaming token counterfeiter? Even though he was eventually caught, to this day, the casinos cannot tell the difference between his fakes and the real thing. He was just that good. Surprisingly, what caught the attention of an Atlantic City cop working casino fraud was the fact that a $100 machine he was playing jammed with his max bet in it and he walked away without complaining.

 

It makes you stop and wonder if these coins were produced as long ago as they claim. Let's face it, the VAM Book wasn't even published at the time in question.

 

Chris

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Hoot

Hoot

Posted
Posted

Ah! I understand now. yeahok.gif Good question. Perhaps the counterfeiter thought that changing the obverse dies would be enough distraction to conceal their operation. confused-smiley-013.gif Mix things up just enough to make it difficult to detect?

 

Hoot

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sadysta1

sadysta1

Posted
Posted

Here's another funny counterfit story.

 

A couple of years ago come counterfiters in Poland were producing fake dollars. They were caught and fake money were turn over to secret service for analysis. What they found was that the fakes were so good that they were better quality than the notes that were produced legally. 27_laughing.gif

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BankNote1

BankNote1

Posted
Posted

I watched a show on the History channel(I think it was the History Channel) about a counterfeiter who copied the casino tokens. He got caught, but the program said that his tokens were so good that most are still being used. Even some of the token makers couldn't tell the difference. While he was in jail he became a consultant to the U.S. Mint! I wish I could remember the guys name. He still lives in R.I.

 

I talked to a dealer friend last night about these micro "o" coins and he sounded just like what Tradedollarnut posted! What is scary is what else is floating around in slabs that is fake?????

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Leothelion

Leothelion

Posted
Posted

From article;

Who would attempt such a feat? With the price of silver on the open market at prices much cheaper than the official price (25-50 cents for much of the first half of the twentieth century versus the official United States rate of $1.29 per ounce). The temptation to produce silver dollars with the "full" amount of silver and pocketing the difference was irresistible to someone.

 

In fact, one of the suspect coins was sent for elemental testing and it came back 94% silver and about 6% copper! It contains even more silver than a genuine United States silver dollar. However, even with extra silver and the work needed to create the dies and planchets. the profit from these coins would have been tremendous. Certainly, this was a temptation to hard to resist.

 

Perhaps, as I write this out, something will eventually make some sense. The market value was 25 to 50 cents an ounce and the official United States rate was $1.29 per ounce at that time but yet more silver was added to the coins so they could recirculate without being detected??? 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

I know I'm missing something here but was the impostor buying silver at 25 to 50 cents and in turn, used the cheap silver to make the rare dollars to sell at $1.29? or $500 screwy.gif If your making $500 why worry about the price of silver?

But if the guy was leaning towards the higher silver value, why add more silver.

Maybe he was taking the good silver out of circulation and returning the dollars with cheap silver so no-one would know a few dollars were missing? screwy.gif

 

27_laughing.gif I'm completely lost here folks!! What was this guy trying to do? I give up!

Call me stupid if you want but I just don't get it! 27_laughing.gif

 

Leo

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Leothelion

Leothelion

Posted
Posted

The temptation to produce silver dollars with the "full" amount of silver and pocketing the difference was irresistible to someone.

 

This line doesn't make much sense to me either! If the guy was adding more silver to the dollars he was making, what differences was he pocketing. Unless he was using the cheap silver?

 

Also when I pasted the article in MS word, there were run on sentences, mispelled words and some sentence structuring (wording) that didn't make sense at first. The article doesn't say who wrote it. It looks like the mentality of who wrote wasn't much better then the clowns who graded those coins to begin with.

 

On another note, wouldn't it had been better to have slabbed the bunch of coins that came in before publiczing the fake coins and pushing their grade quarantee.

The prices might have fallen and ..........no that would not have been right either.

 

Also Pcgs has stated that they are no longer certifying those 3 dates! Do I smell a rat here? What if someone proves that they have a genuine exanple of one of those dates? Are there any genuine dates to begin with. Stay tuned!

 

Leo

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DonHeath

DonHeath

Posted
Posted

Looking at the die diagnostics, its apparent they match, but whats interesting to me is why a counterfeiter would choose an O mint coin as their victim, and particularly, why a single reverse and three different obverses of different dates. Also, assuming such an operation were successful, why so few coins? Could it be they were successful producing other date/mm combinations that have not been attributed? Pretty weird. I also wonder whose "large group of coins" was submitted. I suspect this will be an interesting story before its over.

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DWLange

DWLange

Posted
  • Member: Seasoned Veteran
Posted

Regarding the three Micro O varieties in question:

 

NGC did certify a few of these when we first began doing VAMs around 1997. After a short time we decided that these three Micro O dates were almost certainly fakes. We opted not to publicize this fact at the time, awaiting further study, but since then all examples submitted have been returned as Questionable Authenticity with no grade. The few we certified at the beginning have been withheld from the Census for quite awhile.

 

I've commented in my own column (reprinted in the NGC Newsletter) that the 1896-O, 1900-O and 1902-O Micro O dollars were probably circulating counterfeits, but no one outside of VAM circles seems to have picked up on this statement. It ruffled quite a few feathers (7 or 8?) among specialists in VAM varieties, so the PCGS pronouncement is not exactly breaking news. It is only a revelation to non-specialists.

 

The 1899-O Micro O VAM varieties do include many genuine coins, and we will continue to certify ones that qualify as gradeable.

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Oldtrader3

Oldtrader3

Posted
Posted

Despite all the puffery next door, I am surprised that no one over at PCGS paid any attention to David's article and withdrawl of Pop. listings on these micro-O's Morgans a year ago. It might have saved them from "appearing to be wearing no clothes". boo.gif

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