A fantasy piece that IS compliant with the HPA

[Hard Times]

This is how it is supposed to be done.

 

Click

[RWB]

"1964P Fantasy Morgan Dollar, similar to Daniel Carr"

 

No, not "similar" -- the referenced piece is a legal imitation. Omitting the word "COPY" would create a counterfeit coin.

[coinman_23885]

"1964P Fantasy Morgan Dollar, similar to Daniel Carr"

 

No, not "similar" -- the referenced piece is a legal imitation. Omitting the word "COPY" would create a counterfeit coin.

 

 

The EBay listing also makes reference to a similar argument in its description. If this producer can figure it out, why can't others?

[brg5658]

I wouldn't put it past DCarr to file suit against this guy arguing that his legal and properly marked "COPY" numismatic fantasy piece is a counterfeit of "authentic" DCarr pieces!

 

 

 

Now that would be interesting to explain in a court of law.

[coinman_23885]

You should read the thread about it ATS where his rabid supporters have even attacked the producer of this particular item and criticized him for producing a "knock-off." Apparently, his supporters are reporting it to eBay as Carr has admitted doing himself with some of his competitors. If this piece (which complies with the HPA and other federal law) is a knock-off, what in the world do they think Carr's pieces are? It sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

The hypocrisy is insane. When I actually point to the law, I am chided and the thread becomes a discussion of laws not being worthy of support. When that doesn't work, it turns into this:

 

 

[coinman_23885]

I wouldn't put it past DCarr to file suit against this guy arguing that his legal and properly marked "COPY" numismatic fantasy piece is a counterfeit of "authentic" DCarr pieces!

 

 

 

Now that would be interesting to explain in a court of law.

 

That would be worthy of a bench slap... and sanctions.

[brg5658]

You should read the thread about it ATS where his rabid supporters have even attacked the producer of this particular item and criticized him for producing a "knock-off." Apparently, his supporters are reporting it to eBay as Carr has admitted doing himself with some of his competitors. If this piece (which complies with the HPA and other federal law) is a knock-off, what in the world do they think Carr's pieces are? It sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

The hypocrisy is insane. When I actually point to the law, I am chided and the thread becomes a discussion of laws not being worthy of support. When that doesn't work, it turns into this:

 

 

 

 

Sadly, double standards are aplenty in this hobby. And, ATS it seems all of the bad things about this hobby get magnified 10 fold.

 

I post there, but I largely stay out of the US Forum -- I've gotten a little too close to the "bam-hammer" in that arena.

 

 

[BillJones]

I have long been critical of Carr's products that don't have the word "COPY" on them.

[ldhair]

This is how it is supposed to be done.

 

Click

That's what I have always thought but it looks like the man can do just about anything he wishes. I hope at some point he will start doing the right thing.

[coinman_23885]

This is how it is supposed to be done.

 

Click

That's what I have always thought but it looks like the man can do just about anything he wishes. I hope at some point he will start doing the right thing.

 

I believe the Moonlight Mint's days are numbered.

[CaptHenway]

This is how it is supposed to be done.

 

Click

 

Indeed!

[CaptHenway]

You should read the thread about it ATS where his rabid supporters have even attacked the producer of this particular item and criticized him for producing a "knock-off." Apparently, his supporters are reporting it to eBay as Carr has admitted doing himself with some of his competitors. If this piece (which complies with the HPA and other federal law) is a knock-off, what in the world do they think Carr's pieces are? It sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

The hypocrisy is insane. When I actually point to the law, I am chided and the thread becomes a discussion of laws not being worthy of support. When that doesn't work, it turns into this:

 

 

Sad.

[dcarr]

I wouldn't put it past DCarr to file suit against this guy arguing that his legal and properly marked "COPY" numismatic fantasy piece is a counterfeit of "authentic" DCarr pieces!

 

 

 

Now that would be interesting to explain in a court of law.

 

Well, I have no plans to "file suit" over something like that.

I'm not sure why you would state that you "wouldn't put it past DCarr to file suit".

I don't have a history of filing lawsuits. I've never filed one, in fact. But I reserve the right to do so if conditions warrant it (this particular situation does not in my opinion, however).

 

[dcarr]

You should read the thread about it ATS where his rabid supporters have even attacked the producer of this particular item and criticized him for producing a "knock-off." Apparently, his supporters are reporting it to eBay as Carr has admitted doing himself with some of his competitors. If this piece (which complies with the HPA and other federal law) is a knock-off, what in the world do they think Carr's pieces are? It sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

The hypocrisy is insane. When I actually point to the law, I am chided and the thread becomes a discussion of laws not being worthy of support. When that doesn't work, it turns into this:

 

 

"Rabid supporters" ?

That is ridiculous and inflammatory, and a show of disdain for other collectors, as usual. A couple posters ATS rightly pointed out that keyword spamming and misuse of a brand name could be a violation of eBay policies. That is it.

 

And a couple of the listings by that seller were, in fact, in violation. Those being the Gasparro small dollar design that was advertised as being "similar to Daniel Carr". It is not my design. It is not similar to any of my designs. And not only that, I hate that particular Gasparro design and would never want my name associated with it.

 

>>> "Apparently, his supporters are reporting it to eBay as Carr has admitted doing himself with some of his competitors"

 

You keep playing that losing card. I own the copyright to my own original coin designs. When copies of some of those designs showed up on eBay a few years ago, I was encouraged to report violations of "Intellectual Property Rights" to eBay and the auctions were cancelled.

 

And while we are at it, let's examine what harm, if any, is actually being done to numismatics by my products compared to the products of that other seller, Royal Oak Mint (ROM).

 

I think we can all agree that one way to turn off a novice collector is to "bury" them in a coin that they can't sell for nearly what they paid for it.

 

Carr "1964-D" Peace Dollar over-strike:

Issue price: $85 to $165, depending on version.

Produced for a limited time and a limited published quantity (I could have sold a lot more of them).

Current eBay sale prices: typically $500+

 

Royal Oak Mint Peace Dollar:

Issue price: $65.

Produced in unknown quantities, and seemingly open-ended production lasting many years and still available from ROM today.

Current eBay sale prices: few records to go on, but there were recently two that ended with no bids at the starting level of $50. A true auction for them would have likely ended at $20 or less each.

 

Even worse are some of the "reproduction" pieces offered on TV. A buyer of one of those is likely to recoup only a tiny fraction of their initial purchase.

 

The Carr over-strikes have actually been a small boon to numismatics and novice collectors who have purchased them have generally benefited financially, thus increasing their knowledge in, and attachment to, numismatics.

 

PS:

I have never requested that anyone "leave DCarr alone".

I'm willing to debate these things ad infinitum (free advertising, as well as free sharing of knowledge).

 

 

[dcarr]

I believe the Moonlight Mint's days are numbered.

 

Days are numbered for ALL of us.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

"1964P Fantasy Morgan Dollar, similar to Daniel Carr"

 

No, not "similar" -- the referenced piece is a legal imitation. Omitting the word "COPY" would create a counterfeit coin.

 

 

The EBay listing also makes reference to a similar argument in its description. If this producer can figure it out, why can't others?

 

Plus, the weight and purity is guaranteed by the U.S. Mint, according to the seller.

 

The seller didn't quite figure it out, but darn if it isn't close enough to passable under HPA.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I wouldn't put it past DCarr to file suit against this guy arguing that his legal and properly marked "COPY" numismatic fantasy piece is a counterfeit of "authentic" DCarr pieces!

 

 

 

Now that would be interesting to explain in a court of law.

 

I asked just this question of Mr. Carr on the the other thread (I know,,,,which one.... ),

and he was very open that he does not have any objections to others imitating his endeavors, as long as the pieces did not suggest the pieces were a Carr piece.

 

Now, to me an interesting question would be what if it was a Carr piece, and a person decided to add the word "copy" to it and offer it for sale as a Carr piece? That would be a very interesting LEGAL action, in my opinion.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I wouldn't put it past DCarr to file suit against this guy arguing that his legal and properly marked "COPY" numismatic fantasy piece is a counterfeit of "authentic" DCarr pieces!

 

 

 

Now that would be interesting to explain in a court of law.

 

Well, I have no plans to "file suit" over something like that.

I'm not sure why you would state that you "wouldn't put it past DCarr to file suit".

I don't have a history of filing lawsuits. I've never filed one, in fact. But I reserve the right to do so if conditions warrant it (this particular situation does not in my opinion, however).

 

Actually, you stated you welcomed others creating and offering similar pieces for sale so long as the piece was not offered for sale as a genuine Carr piece.

[comicdonna]

This is how it is supposed to be done.

 

Click

That's what I have always thought but it looks like the man can do just about anything he wishes. I hope at some point he will start doing the right thing.

+1

 

Also, that is a really cool fantasy coin on ebay.

[Conder101]

I agree that The coin has been done properly with respect to the HPA, but as with their other copies, the ROM quality is lower than that of the DCarr pieces.

[brg5658]

I agree that The coin has been done properly with respect to the HPA, but as with their other copies, the ROM quality is lower than that of the DCarr pieces.

 

...and less likely to be mistaken for the real thing...which is a good thing for a fantasy!

 

 

I have long held that DCarr is a very talented artistic individual. BUT, in my opinion, that talent is squandered by copying US Mint designs instead of actually minting something of his own design. He does create some self-designed tokens, but his "fame" (or infamy) lies in copying US coins. Even negative publicity is still publicity.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I agree that The coin has been done properly with respect to the HPA, but as with their other copies, the ROM quality is lower than that of the DCarr pieces.

 

Which is more important, in your opinion, the lower perceived quality( and price),recognizing that the quality may improve with time and experience, and assured legality and compliance with HPA, vs. higher perceived quality and price, with questionable legality and questionable compliance with HPA?

[coinman_23885]

 

>>> "Apparently, his supporters are reporting it to eBay as Carr has admitted doing himself with some of his competitors"

 

You keep playing that losing card. I own the copyright to my own original coin designs. When copies of some of those designs showed up on eBay a few years ago, I was encouraged to report violations of "Intellectual Property Rights" to eBay and the auctions were cancelled.

 

You wrote on another forum a year or so ago that you reported some 1964 Peace Dollar fantasy coins. You have no intellectual property rights to any of the design elements at all, and all are in the public domain.

 

I have never requested that anyone "leave DCarr alone".

I'm willing to debate these things ad infinitum (free advertising, as well as free sharing of knowledge).

 

 

That part was aimed at some of your supporters and not particularly you. I may disagree with you on almost everything, but at least you don't run from a debate/disagreement.

[MJ]

You should read the thread about it ATS where his rabid supporters have even attacked the producer of this particular item and criticized him for producing a "knock-off." Apparently, his supporters are reporting it to eBay as Carr has admitted doing himself with some of his competitors. If this piece (which complies with the HPA and other federal law) is a knock-off, what in the world do they think Carr's pieces are? It sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

The hypocrisy is insane. When I actually point to the law, I am chided and the thread becomes a discussion of laws not being worthy of support. When that doesn't work, it turns into this:

 

 

Hyperbole and misleading.

 

Par for the course and it's how one knows when someone is losing a debate.

 

A few people pointed out that it was a Key word spamming violation on EBay. I don't do EBay so I don't have a clue. What I do know is that he has supporters and detractors ATS just like he does here. That thread illustrates it if you take the time to read it. Your two for one Carr and PCGS barb is duly noted. It doesn't take much to stir up and rally Sleepy Hollow does it? Also par for the course. It's rather predictable at this point.

 

mark

[coinman_23885]

You should read the thread about it ATS where his rabid supporters have even attacked the producer of this particular item and criticized him for producing a "knock-off." Apparently, his supporters are reporting it to eBay as Carr has admitted doing himself with some of his competitors. If this piece (which complies with the HPA and other federal law) is a knock-off, what in the world do they think Carr's pieces are? It sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

The hypocrisy is insane. When I actually point to the law, I am chided and the thread becomes a discussion of laws not being worthy of support. When that doesn't work, it turns into this:

 

 

Hyperbole and misleading.

 

The title of the thread is literally: "Hey Daniel Carr; Don't think you're going to like this..."

 

The first post contains a link to the EBay listing above with the text, "Using your name to sell a knock-off?"

 

Carr supporters have opined that the HPA is unworthy of support (here) and stated expressly and/or implied (here and other places) that everyone should leave this alone, and that this is between Carr and the government.

 

How was my quoted post misleading? It is accurate.

 

P.S. The comment about Carr reporting competitors is based on statements Carr has made on other forums. He even has a link on one of his web pages listing these "fakes" (the title of the webpage IIRC).

 

[brg5658]

It doesn't take much to stir up and rally Sleepy Hollow does it? Also par for the course. It's rather predictable at this point.

 

Oh...but we can always count on those from ATS who almost never post here to come over to this side of the street in droves to tell us how we're all being ridiculous. I'm expecting Bochiman along anytime now.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

. Your two for one Carr and PCGS barb is duly noted.

 

mark

 

Also, how did you arrive at the conclusion that I was attacking PCGS? I wasn't. Carr has rabid supporters everywhere. Also note that the comment is targeted at a select cohort of Carr supporters and not all of them. The thread I'm criticizing is ATS, and some of the commentators I think are deserving of that label; ergo, the "rabid supporters [ATS]" language.

[dcarr]

I wouldn't put it past DCarr to file suit against this guy arguing that his legal and properly marked "COPY" numismatic fantasy piece is a counterfeit of "authentic" DCarr pieces!

 

 

 

Now that would be interesting to explain in a court of law.

 

Well, I have no plans to "file suit" over something like that.

I'm not sure why you would state that you "wouldn't put it past DCarr to file suit".

I don't have a history of filing lawsuits. I've never filed one, in fact. But I reserve the right to do so if conditions warrant it (this particular situation does not in my opinion, however).

 

Actually, you stated you welcomed others creating and offering similar pieces for sale so long as the piece was not offered for sale as a genuine Carr piece.

 

If someone else were to produce fantasy-date over-strikes, I would have no say in the matter so long as the designs were not copyrighted and they didn't use my name or my brand names in promoting them.

 

[dcarr]

You wrote on another forum a year or so ago that you reported some 1964 Peace Dollar fantasy coins. You have no intellectual property rights to any of the design elements at all, and all are in the public domain.

 

Yes, I reported some eBay auctions of "1964-D" Peace Dollars because they were of Chinese origin (not over-stuck, not silver), and the seller was stating in their auction description that they were made by "Daniel Carr".

 

At the time, the Carr over-strikes were selling for about $250 and the Chinese ones less than $20. The seller was intentionally attempting to portray their Chinese pieces as the more valuable "Carr" over-strike.

 

[brg5658]

You wrote on another forum a year or so ago that you reported some 1964 Peace Dollar fantasy coins. You have no intellectual property rights to any of the design elements at all, and all are in the public domain.

 

Yes, I reported some eBay auctions of "1964-D" Peace Dollars because they were of Chinese origin (not over-stuck, not silver), and the seller was stating in their auction description that they were made by "Daniel Carr".

 

At the time, the Carr over-strikes were selling for about $250 and the Chinese ones less than $20. The seller was intentionally attempting to portray their Chinese pieces as the more valuable "Carr" over-strike.

 

A fake of a fake...this just makes me laugh...sorry, I can't help it...