1942-S Jefferson Nickel

[numisport]

Interesting Coin World article on 42-S Jefferson with wrong mintmark and wrong silver alloy. TPG's wont authenticate and this coin has been around a while, I've just missed it. It's known to be 50 percent silver rather than 35. Any opinions ?

[RWB]

The coin is not alone in having a non-standard alloy. John Kraljevich wrote lot descriptions for two 1944-P high-silver alloy pieces that were sold in the 2013 Stacks-Bowers ANA Sale.

 

At present there is no reliable baseline other than the official specifications.

 

I had suggested that PCGS and NGC cooperate in analyzing the gross composition of a large number of silver-nickel pieces organized by date/mint - plenty of worn pieces available for melt. Suggested the same for 1941-1947 cents. Never heard from either company.

 

The odd part of the coin is use of a 1941-S (right of bldg) reverse that should not have existed by September 1942 when the new alloy was approved. That raises many questions.

[numisport]

This makes a fascinating study but very little is written about this era of coinage. I was hoping you would respond Roger as I am through first few pages of your book. Now what I need is a vacation to go along with my read.

[CaptHenway]

I have seen the coin and been a party to the recent discussions over it. I like it for genuine, but am not sure I could ever prove it.

TD

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

There were a lot of Soviet counterfeits of U.S. coins during the time period.

[CaptHenway]

There were a lot of Soviet counterfeits of U.S. coins during the time period.

 

Don't think it is a Soviet counterfeit. For one thing, the piece has more silver in it than a Mercury dime. The Americans could afford to waste silver to keep nickels in production, since nickels were very important in the vending machine industry of the day, but the Soviets would have just used the silver to make more counterfeit dimes at twice the face value.

[RWB]

It was the vending machine industry that objected to the initial plan of a 50-50 alloy of silver and copper. They wanted an alloy with the same electromagnetic properties and the standard alloy. However, the industry did not actually have any of the new-type detectors in use in 1942, so any alloy with the right weigh/diameter/thickness would have worked just fine. In effect, there was no need for the Mn and Al parts of the alloy.

 

[More details are in the book "Pattern and Experimental Pieces of WW-II."

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

There were a lot of Soviet counterfeits of U.S. coins during the time period.

 

Don't think it is a Soviet counterfeit. For one thing, the piece has more silver in it than a Mercury dime. The Americans could afford to waste silver to keep nickels in production, since nickels were very important in the vending machine industry of the day, but the Soviets would have just used the silver to make more counterfeit dimes at twice the face value.

 

Yes, but that was not the only purpose.

[physics-fan3.14]

[More details are in the book "Pattern and Experimental Pieces of WW-II."

 

Shameless hype for Roger's book: that was a fascinating read. I have no interest in ever collecting any of that stuff, but the history of what went into making the famous war nickels was a very interesting discussion.

[RWB]

"Shameless hype for Roger's book..."

 

Yep.

 

I'd like to hear more about the "Soviet counterfeits."

[CaptHenway]

"Shameless hype for Roger's book..."

 

Yep.

 

I'd like to hear more about the "Soviet counterfeits."

 

The Redbook lists in a footnote 1923-D and 1930-D Mercury dimes that are counterfeit because the Mint never made any. They are good silver and good die quality. The accepted knowledge is that during the early 1930's the Soviet Union used cheap silver to make full-weight counterfeits that were smuggled into America and deposited at banks. I have never seen any proof of this story, but it is a good story and probably true. I have never seen any suggestion that other date and mint mark combinations were made, a la the Small o Morgan dollar counterfeits and related pieces, but it is very possible.

[RWB]

Is there any documentation or even newspaper articles? Maybe a letter from "Papa Joe" to his pals in the Gulag enclosing some samples?

[PocketArt]

I read this article in Coin World too and thought it was very interesting. What I'm curious about is what's necessary for TPG's to consider labeling this piece as authentic?

 

Absent of any documentation from the mint that these nickels were ever struck; would it take a few more of these being discovered if they exist to determine authenticity? Would that be enough?

 

 

[CaptHenway]

I read this article in Coin World too and thought it was very interesting. What I'm curious about is what's necessary for TPG's to consider labeling this piece as authentic?

 

Absent of any documentation from the mint that these nickels were ever struck; would it take a few more of these being discovered if they exist to determine authenticity? Would that be enough?

 

 

Might depend on the condition of the new specimens.

 

TD

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

"Shameless hype for Roger's book..."

 

Yep.

 

I'd like to hear more about the "Soviet counterfeits."

 

The Redbook lists in a footnote 1923-D and 1930-D Mercury dimes that are counterfeit because the Mint never made any. They are good silver and good die quality. The accepted knowledge is that during the early 1930's the Soviet Union used cheap silver to make full-weight counterfeits that were smuggled into America and deposited at banks. I have never seen any proof of this story, but it is a good story and probably true. I have never seen any suggestion that other date and mint mark combinations were made, a la the Small o Morgan dollar counterfeits and related pieces, but it is very possible.

 

I am sure I am probably misinterpreting, because earlier you mentioned that U.S. could afford to waste silver - implying the Soviets could not,which I interpret you are suggesting the Soviets could not benefit from silver price differences because it was more expensive for the Soviets- to keep the nickel vending machines working etc., and the Soviets would have just made counterfeit dimes at twice the value because the silver cost the Soviets more. In your present post, you opine the Soviets used cheap silver to make full weight counterfeits. The cheaper Soviet silver is an historical fact, so the Soviets could afford to waste on a counterfeit operation because of the rate of exchange. The U.S. could not. I assume your commentary of wasting silver was to emphasizethe vending machine importance to the U.S. at the time. Otherwise, the opinions conflict. I don't subscribe to such an opinion, but I can understand why it is presented.

 

It should also be mentioned that Soviet counterfeit operations continued far past the 30s, and even the 40s, and the 50s, some successful for specific purposes and many attempts interrupted by various U.S. agencies. The 23D and 30D were stupid mistakes most likely due to a silly assumption, by a Vodka sodden Soviet Operator, that all mints made all denominations of U.S. coinage. U.S. agencies were aware of the blunder and used it to accomplish counter operations as far reaching as espionage into the 60s.

 

CIA is your friend. Army Intelligence is your friend. Soviet defectors are your friend.

[CaptHenway]

"Shameless hype for Roger's book..."

 

Yep.

 

I'd like to hear more about the "Soviet counterfeits."

 

The Redbook lists in a footnote 1923-D and 1930-D Mercury dimes that are counterfeit because the Mint never made any. They are good silver and good die quality. The accepted knowledge is that during the early 1930's the Soviet Union used cheap silver to make full-weight counterfeits that were smuggled into America and deposited at banks. I have never seen any proof of this story, but it is a good story and probably true. I have never seen any suggestion that other date and mint mark combinations were made, a la the Small o Morgan dollar counterfeits and related pieces, but it is very possible.

 

I am sure I am probably misinterpreting, because earlier you mentioned that U.S. could afford to waste silver - implying the Soviets could not,which I interpret you are suggesting the Soviets could not benefit from silver price differences because it was more expensive for the Soviets- to keep the nickel vending machines working etc., and the Soviets would have just made counterfeit dimes at twice the value because the silver cost the Soviets more. In your present post, you opine the Soviets used cheap silver to make full weight counterfeits. The cheaper Soviet silver is an historical fact, so the Soviets could afford to waste on a counterfeit operation because of the rate of exchange. The U.S. could not. I assume your commentary of wasting silver was to emphasizethe vending machine importance to the U.S. at the time. Otherwise, the opinions conflict. I don't subscribe to such an opinion, but I can understand why it is presented.

 

It should also be mentioned that Soviet counterfeit operations continued far past the 30s, and even the 40s, and the 50s, some successful for specific purposes and many attempts interrupted by various U.S. agencies. The 23D and 30D were stupid mistakes most likely due to a silly assumption, by a Vodka sodden Soviet Operator, that all mints made all denominations of U.S. coinage. U.S. agencies were aware of the blunder and used it to accomplish counter operations as far reaching as espionage into the 60s.

 

CIA is your friend. Army Intelligence is your friend. Soviet defectors are your friend.

 

I am assuming that the Soviet counterfeit dime operation was conducted in the 1930's, when times were hard and silver was cheap. That corresponds with the dates of the two known counterfeits, but does not prove the point.

 

The U.S. could afford to waste silver making nickels during 1942-45 because there was a war on, and winning that was more important than the silver.

[RWB]

Much of the silver had been acquired through the Silver Nationalization Act of 1934. This required mines to sell to the government - who happened to be paying 40% above market rates. (A similar situation benefited gold miners who were paid $35/oz for pure gold instead of $20.67/oz.)