That coin doctor on ebay is getting the textile part down

[Afterword]

He actually has so many of his toned garbage coins straight graded in PCGS holders that it makes me wonder, at what point does PCGS decide that they have had enough of this guy making an embarrassment out of them and what they are supposedly "experts" at?

There was a guy on PCGS years ago who made suckers of a lot of those members. His toned coins graded, then he told them he did it. Funny as heck. Shows you what BS they are. All those members want is their big TPG in the sky to crack the whip and they jump like trained seals. Pathetic, really.

 

 

 

I am curious. Did he prove in some way that he toned the coins, or did they just take his word for it?

 

 

[Kurtdog]

He actually has so many of his toned garbage coins straight graded in PCGS holders that it makes me wonder, at what point does PCGS decide that they have had enough of this guy making an embarrassment out of them and what they are supposedly "experts" at?

There was a guy on PCGS years ago who made suckers of a lot of those members. His toned coins graded, then he told them he did it. Funny as heck. Shows you what BS they are. All those members want is their big TPG in the sky to crack the whip and they jump like trained seals. Pathetic, really.

I am curious. Did he prove in some way that he toned the coins, or did they just take his word for it?

I can't say, but I don't think he was pulling their chains. It was long ago. I want to say, 2010, thereabouts. Maybe it was just a little earlier. His coins sold like hotcakes, I remember, with everybody opining on how natural they appeared, including PCGS, and on how much they loved them. Then, they're hating them, and opining on how unnatural they appeared. What a freaking laugh.

[Afterword]

I was just wondering, because it is possible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt a coin has been artificially toned (video, etc.) I suspect it is virtually impossible, however, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a coin has not been artificially toned.

[mumu]

2006

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=535409&FTVAR_STKEYWORDFRM=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

 

 

[Kurtdog]

2006

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=535409&FTVAR_STKEYWORDFRM=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

That's him! ! I think there are more threads, too. Notice in this one how they're now equivocating over his sentence. Should they admire him for his courage or kick his butt out? This is hilarious. And it's all because they're conditioned there to rely on "experts" applying arbitrary and capricious standards to judge whether they have permission to like the color on a coin.

[mark]

Kurtdog:

 

It would probably be better if you got the story correct. MoC managed to discover a way to tone coins that were already slabbed in 1st gen holders. PCGS did not slab any of his coins. That's not to say that PCGS has caught all AT'ed coins and rejected them, far from it. But to say or imply that MoC managed to slip some of his doctored coins past PCGS is false.

 

I thought at the time that MoC was a goner. But he managed to stick around and rebuild his reputation, though I think primarily with newer posters and those older ones who more or less instantly forgave him. Frankly, I did not understand his motives nor do I understand how he managed to regain people's esteem.

 

Mark

[Kurtdog]

Mark:

 

There are other threads, although you may be right. I could have had MoC mixed in with the guy who announced he used the sulphur on matchsticks to tone the coins he slipped by PCGS. If I recall that right, he went 5 for 5 on those submissions.

[jom]

Mark:

 

There are other threads, although you may be right. I could have had MoC mixed in with the guy who announced he used the sulphur on matchsticks to tone the coins he slipped by PCGS. If I recall that right, he went 5 for 5 on those submissions.

 

There is a good chance PCGS missed that due to the "match stick" method making the coins look very much like coin board toning.

 

Then again, PCGS passing all of those absurd Silver Eagles and the blue toned proof IHCs are another matter entirely....

 

jom

[mark]

Kurtdog:

 

Yeah, I vaguely recall the matchstick thread. And I believe that you are definitely correct with that thread. For some reason, the MoC thread has just stuck in mind. I don't know why...

 

Mark

[Danye West]

that thread is 40 pages. And I've just read them all.

But honestly the AT'd coins are so obvious!

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Kurtdog:

 

It would probably be better if you got the story correct. MoC managed to discover a way to tone coins that were already slabbed in 1st gen holders. PCGS did not slab any of his coins. That's not to say that PCGS has caught all AT'ed coins and rejected them, far from it. But to say or imply that MoC managed to slip some of his doctored coins past PCGS is false.

 

I thought at the time that MoC was a goner. But he managed to stick around and rebuild his reputation, though I think primarily with newer posters and those older ones who more or less instantly forgave him. Frankly, I did not understand his motives nor do I understand how he managed to regain people's esteem.

 

Mark

 

I don't think that is quite the way it went down, but no matter. What I question is your conviction that it is a false statement to suggest the doctored coins were not given a pass. You do not know that. You do not know what was or was not submitted or for that matter when submitted if they were and you do not know if any were resubmitted after the treatment. Nobody knows anything with certainty and nobody knows if there is or is not a full accounting. It is not even known with certainty if he "discovered" the method.

 

It is the equal of a taco bell coin story and that is all it is.

 

[Danye West]

I read the whole thread... and MoC's toned coins were very bad looking, obviously fake.

[mark]

Mr.Mcknowitall:

 

You are definitely correct, I do not know if any of the MoC coins were cracked out and then ultimately made it into PCGS (or NGC) slabs after they were doctored. Let's hope not.

 

But I believe the conclusion was that the coins had initially been slabbed and MoC had determined some way to tone them whilst in the slab. Of course, I was surely not looking over his shoulder, so I do not know this as a fact. My recollection, however, is that someone found a picture of a pre-AT'ed coin and than one of the coin, in the same slab, after the treatment.

 

Mark

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Mr.Mcknowitall:

 

You are definitely correct, I do not know if any of the MoC coins were cracked out and then ultimately made it into PCGS (or NGC) slabs after they were doctored. Let's hope not.

 

But I believe the conclusion was that the coins had initially been slabbed and MoC had determined some way to tone them whilst in the slab. Of course, I was surely not looking over his shoulder, so I do not know this as a fact. My recollection, however, is that someone found a picture of a pre-AT'ed coin and than one of the coin, in the same slab, after the treatment.

 

Mark

 

You are correct. The individual you mention was involved on the Board at that time, and was a drama queen. You may also recall the individual was a seller ( I hesitate to use the word dealer or numismatist or even collector) that would often pm members to put in a bid for their coins to add legitimacy to his offerings. MOC would chastise the individual from time to time. Well, a lot really, and the individual would strike back. He was known to make some real whopper statements. I was known to have an open opinion about the person. He made astounding claims and Mark would attempt to reason with the person to no avail. I am proud to state that I was able in a 5 hour session to force him to start answering his own posts with an entirely different position. No, I did not belittle him nor was I discourteous. He was not a very logical fellow, but somewhat vindictive. St. Guru used to have a ball with him.

 

Ring a bell now?

 

There was also a member now deceased but well known and a true numismatist and respected (he died in horrible circumstances and very young) that did not believe MOC and mentioned he had seen this scenario during his time grading. The 1st gen holders were not all airtight and the introduction of certain gaseous chemicals could have an effect. There was a suspicion by another member, a chemist, who opined that the coin was prior treated before submitting and had been removed from the slab of another grading company now long gone, and then subjected to the introduction of chemicals. It was thought that the coins had been "baked" before submitting.

 

Ring a bell now?

[mackbrass]

I sent him a simple email a few months ago asking about the toning. I asked if it was artificial and if what he was selling would be worth submission for grading. I explained that i didnt want artificial toned coins as they, to me were ruined.

 

In his response he never said they were AT and said that PCGS accepts about 70% of his submissions. I do have the response and can copy and paste it but it will take a while to find.

 

I have no doubt he is responsible for ruining these coins and i have no doubt the he is having some, not all, graded. Does he have a 70% acceptance rate with PCGS? I highly doubt he has a 10% success rate but claims 70% just to make a sale.

 

It is abvious he likes what he is doing and he must be selling a lot of them. As long as there is a market with willing buyers then he will continue to sell.

 

I doubt pcgs is grading as many as he claims because toned coins like this are just not that common. Certainly a giant red flag would be flying high if he submitted 50 coins and 40 of them were toned in the mannor that he is selling them.

 

Does he care about ruining coins? Hell no.

 

Is he honest about what he is doing? Hell no.

 

Is he doing the AT himself? Hell yea.

 

Can i proove he is doing it? Hell no.

 

Do dealers or sellers just come across and continuously have a large inventory of every type of coin with every color of the rainbow available for sale without artificially toning them behind closed doors? I highly doubt it.

 

Is every coin he sells artificially toned? Not every one, i am sure some are legit (very, very VERY, few i would bet) but this is only done as a smokescreen.