Countering unfair dealer practices online

[Nutmeg Coin]

I was wondering what others think about trying to counter unfair dealer buying and selling practices? You see and hear dealers bragging about their rips, paying too little for what they buy from unknowing sellers and charging high retail to customers whether the coins and currency are raw or certified. Is it kosher to go online and post reviews on their site suggesting that customers do their research online or by checking or calling around? Some say "you can't fix stupid" which is a cop-out. Many people even professional white collar workers, trustingly walk into Acme coin shop thinking that fairness is expected and then deal with the unseen pressure to buy or sell.

[MarkFeld]

Are the dealers you speak of going to allow negative comments to be posted on their sites?

[World Colonial]

If I understand you correctly, I wasn't aware it was possible to leave a review on a coin dealer's internet site. I would particularly expect those who have a habit of listing their coins at above market or exorbitant ask prices wouldn't make it possible.

 

Since I don't buy US coins, I don't automatically know whether an ask price is excessive without first checking elsewhere. There are a few dealers (who will remain nameless) who sell coins from the world coins series I collect who ask inflated prices going by my opinion of market value. They are essentially attempting (and presumably in many instances succeeding) in selling them for prices that I won't pay. But then, since it isn't a "one off", I suppose the argument can be made that it isn't excessive and I am just cheap, right?

 

As one example, an 18th century PCGS MS-65 Spanish coin is currently listed at $3450. Its eye appeal is above average but in my opinion, the coin isn't even worth $1000 USD. I might pay somewhat over $500 for it if I really wanted it but that is all. Its been there for a few months and now reduced from $3950. I don't believe it will sell for anywhere near their ask price but who knows..

 

To go back to your original question, I wouldn't do so if I ever thought I might buy from the dealer. Not unless you want to get blacklisted.

[Nutmeg Coin]

There are many neutral review sites; yelp and google review for example. I don't know if "Angie's List" covers the area.

[MarkFeld]

There are many neutral review sites; yelp and google review for example. I don't know if "Angie's List" covers the area.

 

You initially wrote "Is it kosher to go online and post reviews on their site suggesting that customers do their research online or by checking or calling around?" But did you mean to indicate "reviews about their site..." rather than "reviews on their site..." ?

[nk1nk]

In my opinion unfortunately a lot of coin dealers come across as the stereotypical used car salesman. There are many lemon laws in place to help consumers when buying a car but the coin biz its pretty much a free for all. I believe in capitalism and think a dealer should be free to sell their goods for as much as they see fit. I do find it unfortunate many take advantage of the unknowing. I think the only real recourse is education. I wish forums like these were more popular.

 

I feel untrustworthy dealers are just as much a threat to this hobby as Chinese fake coins and would love to see a way to weed out the unfair practices of some dealers.

 

personally I find reviews of products outside of coins to be very popular and beneficial. I don't see how it could hurt the hobby to have a place to write reviews. I think it would help business for good dealers and discourage shady practice of other less savory dealers. because of the nature of coins and how opinions can differ greatly from one collector to another it may not be realistic option though.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Nick

[CaptHenway]

There are dishonest and/or greedy people on both sides of the table, as well as honest and generous people. Be very careful of using generalisms, because all generalisms are false, including this one.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I actually meant reviews online of a given business. I wouldn't see any real issue doing a yelp review advising potential customers to research their collectibles on Heritage, Apmex, etc.. Of course it could be done anonymously under a pseudonym if fear of retaliation were present, without real malice just the caveat. Ebay feedback is a system, albeit quite imperfect because of the lengthy fear of various types of retaliation. How else would our fellow citizens learn?

[World Colonial]

Your clarification helps. However, it would never occur to me to go to Yelp or a similar site for the purpose you described. I subscribe to Angie's List but that feedback system has real "teeth" to it because other subscribers are motivated to read the reviews and negatives make a difference.

[AHFreak]

Yep generalisms can be very toxic. .. stop and imagine the stuff coin dealers have to deal with daily... if they aren't dilligent they can become the prey easily... IMO it's as much or more than the ones who are the predator.

 

 

[Afterword]

How would you screen these reviews, whether they are positive or negative, to determine their legitimacy? Would they not be meaningless without a qualifying factor to substantiate their validity?

[Nutmeg Coin]

Amazon also has comprehensive reviews on books, it really helps other readers know whether a given book is worth reading or how others regarded a book.

 

As for dealers potentially being victimized, I have never seen a dealer pay too much it is almost invariably the other way around. Numismatics purchased for $50-$200 sold for far more in many cases whether coins or currency. I have seen it over and over again. Selective amnesia helps when the coin comes back from grading or goes crazy at auction.

 

As for dealers "blacklisting" those who leave them honest though critical reviews, really that would just increase attention to their unfair practices. If dealers are doing dozens of transactions a week or day, there should be many more reviews where customers relay their experiences. I find it extremely hypocritical of these "free trade" fanatics who are always saying how no one made anyone sell or buy, therefore they had a perfect right to engage in such practices. A plethora of information on many levels is the only way that customers will be able to make smart business decisions as much as certain dealers work overtime to cloud the issues through justifying them bases on their expenses their families their medical issues their not knowing, etc..

 

Greedy business practices are bad for the hobby in so many ways and if dealers get concerned that they are getting unfair feedback, then they should ask their happy customers to leave them feedback.

[Afterword]

There is a difference between saying you like or dislike something (novel or movie) and saying someone (banker or coin dealer) is dishonest. The latter requires proof to prevent honest dealers from unjustly being accused of dishonest behavior.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Your clarification helps. However, it would never occur to me to go to Yelp or a similar site for the purpose you described. I subscribe to Angie's List but that feedback system has real "teeth" to it because other subscribers are motivated to read the reviews and negatives make a difference.

 

Leave your negative reviews at will on line. Post their names on message boards so the negative talk comes up when you google their names. Use their Facebook. Don't forget to leave reviews on the mapping services also, like google. People find stuff on their phones now. Beware EVERYTHING you do online from your home can be traced back to you easily unless you use proxies. And even then most things can because it is difficult to create "clean" accounts to review from.

 

Also beaware, far as helping customers, Yelp sucks. They will offer to delete negative reviews for paying customers. One of their service reps called me at work and offered to delete one! I had him dig up a way I could reply. My work is very honest so a reply would be great.

[Conder101]

You see and hear dealers bragging about their rips, paying too little for what they buy from unknowing sellers and charging high retail to customers whether the coins and currency are raw or certified.

You see collectors doing the same thing, and you will often see other collectors congratulating them for their "great rip" or for doing so.

[bourse28]

Wow, I am wondering what this has to do with US Coins but......

 

There are bad apples and braggarts on both sides of the table. Why this bashing of dealers, calling them used car salesmen, etc? I resent your comments attempting to generalize dealers in a negative light. Its like saying all persons of a particular ethnic group are criminals.

 

When I am set up at a show and someone comes by my table bashing dealers with some non specific generalization (which is very rare as most are at the show to buy, sell, research, etc) two things are usually obvious: its time for them to leave my table and I wonder if their attitude is due to lack of money / envy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

There are no excuses for dealers not being fair with customers whether buying or selling. But people have to be able to research value before they sell which is an impediment for some with the steep learning curves in coins and currency. It is not "bashing" or in any other way malicious to push for honest dealers for the sake of the hobby. And all the arguments ring hollow on why dealer A paid substantially less than a collectible was worth due to overhead, or uncertainty. Certainly there are exceptional cases where dealers should not be ashamed of crazy profits. But across the spectrum of fair dealing, Heritage Auctions for example pays reasonable prices, they never argue that their overhead makes it necessary for them to offer less than they should. The issue really comes down to competence, legitimate expert opinions, and integrity.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

There are dishonest and/or greedy people on both sides of the table, as well as honest and generous people. Be very careful of using generalisms, because all generalisms are false, including this one.

 

It was not a "generalism". It was an observation about unfair dealers and untrustworthy dealers.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Wow, I am wondering what this has to do with US Coins but......

 

There are bad apples and braggarts on both sides of the table. Why this bashing of dealers, calling them used car salesmen, etc? I resent your comments attempting to generalize dealers in a negative light. Its like saying all persons of a particular ethnic group are criminals.

 

When I am set up at a show and someone comes by my table bashing dealers with some non specific generalization (which is very rare as most are at the show to buy, sell, research, etc) two things are usually obvious: its time for them to leave my table and I wonder if their attitude is due to lack of money / envy.

 

 

It has everything to do with U.S. coins and any foreign coin. The statement was not all dealers. It was "a lot of" dealers, and clarified the reference by stating "untrustworthy".

 

If I come to your table and "bash" dealers with a specific commentary as opposed to a non-specific generalization, is it time to leave your table or should I prove how much money I have before we continue the conversation?

 

Yes, any Dealer or any business should allow (and welcome) respectful and courteous commentary and opinions and questions concerning their business and practices, negative or positive to be on their website, and the Dealer/Business owner should reply to any question or commentary. Open communication is a good thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Afterword]

Wow, I am wondering what this has to do with US Coins but......

 

There are bad apples and braggarts on both sides of the table. Why this bashing of dealers, calling them used car salesmen, etc? I resent your comments attempting to generalize dealers in a negative light. Its like saying all persons of a particular ethnic group are criminals.

 

When I am set up at a show and someone comes by my table bashing dealers with some non specific generalization (which is very rare as most are at the show to buy, sell, research, etc) two things are usually obvious: its time for them to leave my table and I wonder if their attitude is due to lack of money / envy.

 

 

It has everything to do with U.S. coins and any foreign coin. The statement was not all dealers. It was "a lot of" dealers, and clarified the reference by stating "untrustworthy".

 

If I come to your table and "bash" dealers with a specific commentary as opposed to a non-specific generalization, is it time to leave your table or should I prove how much money I have before we continue the conversation?

 

Yes, any Dealer or any business should allow (and welcome) respectful and courteous commentary and opinions and questions concerning their business and practices, negative or positive to be on their website, and the Dealer/Business owner should reply to any question or commentary. Open communication is a good thing.

 

 

 

This guy is arguing with himself. I do this sometimes. It is the only argument I am guaranteed to win.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Wow, I am wondering what this has to do with US Coins but......

 

There are bad apples and braggarts on both sides of the table. Why this bashing of dealers, calling them used car salesmen, etc? I resent your comments attempting to generalize dealers in a negative light. Its like saying all persons of a particular ethnic group are criminals.

 

When I am set up at a show and someone comes by my table bashing dealers with some non specific generalization (which is very rare as most are at the show to buy, sell, research, etc) two things are usually obvious: its time for them to leave my table and I wonder if their attitude is due to lack of money / envy.

 

 

It has everything to do with U.S. coins and any foreign coin. The statement was not all dealers. It was "a lot of" dealers, and clarified the reference by stating "untrustworthy".

 

If I come to your table and "bash" dealers with a specific commentary as opposed to a non-specific generalization, is it time to leave your table or should I prove how much money I have before we continue the conversation?

 

Yes, any Dealer or any business should allow (and welcome) respectful and courteous commentary and opinions and questions concerning their business and practices, negative or positive to be on their website, and the Dealer/Business owner should reply to any question or commentary. Open communication is a good thing.

 

 

 

This guy is arguing with himself. I do this sometimes. It is the only argument I am guaranteed to win.

 

No, what happened was when I replied, the quote thing was so far down the bottom oof his post, that when I replied, it migrated to his post, as if he stated it. By the time I realized it, the damage was done.

 

My post starts with: " It has everything....".

[Afterword]

Wow, I am wondering what this has to do with US Coins but......

 

There are bad apples and braggarts on both sides of the table. Why this bashing of dealers, calling them used car salesmen, etc? I resent your comments attempting to generalize dealers in a negative light. Its like saying all persons of a particular ethnic group are criminals.

 

When I am set up at a show and someone comes by my table bashing dealers with some non specific generalization (which is very rare as most are at the show to buy, sell, research, etc) two things are usually obvious: its time for them to leave my table and I wonder if their attitude is due to lack of money / envy.

 

 

It has everything to do with U.S. coins and any foreign coin. The statement was not all dealers. It was "a lot of" dealers, and clarified the reference by stating "untrustworthy".

 

If I come to your table and "bash" dealers with a specific commentary as opposed to a non-specific generalization, is it time to leave your table or should I prove how much money I have before we continue the conversation?

 

Yes, any Dealer or any business should allow (and welcome) respectful and courteous commentary and opinions and questions concerning their business and practices, negative or positive to be on their website, and the Dealer/Business owner should reply to any question or commentary. Open communication is a good thing.

 

 

 

This guy is arguing with himself. I do this sometimes. It is the only argument I am guaranteed to win.

 

No, what happened was when I replied, the quote thing was so far down the bottom oof his post, that when I replied, it migrated to his post, as if he stated it. By the time I realized it, the damage was done.

 

My post starts with: " It has everything....".

 

 

 

I know. It just seemed comical to me. He appeared to be arguing with himself and you seemed to be so astonished by it that you were rendered speechless.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Wow, I am wondering what this has to do with US Coins but......

 

There are bad apples and braggarts on both sides of the table. Why this bashing of dealers, calling them used car salesmen, etc? I resent your comments attempting to generalize dealers in a negative light. Its like saying all persons of a particular ethnic group are criminals.

 

When I am set up at a show and someone comes by my table bashing dealers with some non specific generalization (which is very rare as most are at the show to buy, sell, research, etc) two things are usually obvious: its time for them to leave my table and I wonder if their attitude is due to lack of money / envy.

 

 

It has everything to do with U.S. coins and any foreign coin. The statement was not all dealers. It was "a lot of" dealers, and clarified the reference by stating "untrustworthy".

 

If I come to your table and "bash" dealers with a specific commentary as opposed to a non-specific generalization, is it time to leave your table or should I prove how much money I have before we continue the conversation?

 

Yes, any Dealer or any business should allow (and welcome) respectful and courteous commentary and opinions and questions concerning their business and practices, negative or positive to be on their website, and the Dealer/Business owner should reply to any question or commentary. Open communication is a good thing.

 

 

 

This guy is arguing with himself. I do this sometimes. It is the only argument I am guaranteed to win.

 

No, what happened was when I replied, the quote thing was so far down the bottom oof his post, that when I replied, it migrated to his post, as if he stated it. By the time I realized it, the damage was done.

 

My post starts with: " It has everything....".

 

 

 

I know. It just seemed comical to me. He appeared to be arguing with himself and you seemed to be so astonished by it that you were rendered speechless.

 

Got it. Now I understand.

[mackbrass]

I just had an experience when i walked into my local coin shop where I am a very good customer. The owner says i have something for you and shows me a 1904 double eagle and says its a proof and i could have it for 5k. My first reaction was well i dont see any cameo and told him it may only be a PL at best. He insisted it was a proof so i grabbed the redbook and told him there are less than 90 proofs that were minted and told he should have it graded. I am sure he was excited about its condition which I thought at best would grade at MS62 and its value to my eye was about 1600. I got home and found a comp on ebay that was graded as a ms63 PL and was only going for 2800. Even those who appear to be very honest can hype a coin to make a big score. I do know how he buys based off of grey sheet, 10% below and sells for full redbook graded or not. If someone pays 5k for that coin wothout knowing what it really is and going solely off his word will probably be very dissapointed.

 

Bottom line, and this works for anything, an educated consumer is a smart consumer. I never buy without knowing the market first and never buy off what the Redbook says.

 

Right now there is a seller on ebay, southbaymint, and yes i am calling them out, who is selling slabbed high value coins that appear on the Apmex site, same coin and same cert #. Yes he is using Apmex pictures and all and marking them up anywhere from 50 to 300%. I assume that if he sells something he turns around and buys it from Apmex, forwards it to the buyer and pockets the difference. Apmex has been notified of this user. I bet each sale he says, SCORE. Some people dont care.

[Hard Times]

 

As for dealers potentially being victimized, I have never seen a dealer pay too much it is almost invariably the other way around. Numismatics purchased for $50-$200 sold for far more in many cases whether coins or currency. I have seen it over and over again. Selective amnesia helps when the coin comes back from grading or goes crazy at auction.

 

 

Greedy business practices are bad for the hobby in so many ways and if dealers get concerned that they are getting unfair feedback, then they should ask their happy customers to leave them feedback.

 

There is a real simple solution. If you don't like dealing with a dealer, simply, don't. Also, greed is something that is pervasive in human society, it is generally bad in all walks of life but you can't avoid it. So I don't see any of your reasoning in this thread.

 

Best, HT

[Nutmeg Coin]

 

As for dealers potentially being victimized, I have never seen a dealer pay too much it is almost invariably the other way around. Numismatics purchased for $50-$200 sold for far more in many cases whether coins or currency. I have seen it over and over again. Selective amnesia helps when the coin comes back from grading or goes crazy at auction.

 

 

Greedy business practices are bad for the hobby in so many ways and if dealers get concerned that they are getting unfair feedback, then they should ask their happy customers to leave them feedback.

 

There is a real simple solution. If you don't like dealing with a dealer, simply, don't. Also, greed is something that is pervasive in human society, it is generally bad in all walks of life but you can't avoid it. So I don't see any of your reasoning in this thread.

 

Best, HT

 

That's why information and the internet can be used can to counter bad business practices. No one should be in a hurry to sell. I advise most people that if they have something of value to post it on one of the online forums. But not the ebay forums where it is really hard to get accurate advice; more likely you will get someone asking how much you want for it?

[MJ]

 

As for dealers potentially being victimized, I have never seen a dealer pay too much it is almost invariably the other way around. Numismatics purchased for $50-$200 sold for far more in many cases whether coins or currency. I have seen it over and over again. Selective amnesia helps when the coin comes back from grading or goes crazy at auction.

 

 

Greedy business practices are bad for the hobby in so many ways and if dealers get concerned that they are getting unfair feedback, then they should ask their happy customers to leave them feedback.

 

There is a real simple solution. If you don't like dealing with a dealer, simply, don't. Also, greed is something that is pervasive in human society, it is generally bad in all walks of life but you can't avoid it. So I don't see any of your reasoning in this thread.

 

Best, HT

 

I'm with HT.

 

No two coins are alike and neither are two deals. Two willing parties need to come together to make a deal. The same as it ever was.

 

mark

[jom]

 

As for dealers potentially being victimized, I have never seen a dealer pay too much it is almost invariably the other way around.

 

I'm not sure I agree that "most" of the time the customer pays too much. What about the customers that don't pay at all? There are as many crooks on the buying side as they are on the selling side.

 

Whatever the case, I agree with HT if you don't like a particular dealer don't deal with them. They'll eventually be out of business.

 

As to customers getting screwed: Wise up and learn something before you pay big money on coins. It seems to me people jump in before doing in kind of education they whine when they get taken.

 

jom

[Nutmeg Coin]

 

As for dealers potentially being victimized, I have never seen a dealer pay too much it is almost invariably the other way around. Numismatics purchased for $50-$200 sold for far more in many cases whether coins or currency. I have seen it over and over again. Selective amnesia helps when the coin comes back from grading or goes crazy at auction.

 

 

Greedy business practices are bad for the hobby in so many ways and if dealers get concerned that they are getting unfair feedback, then they should ask their happy customers to leave them feedback.

 

There is a real simple solution. If you don't like dealing with a dealer, simply, don't. Also, greed is something that is pervasive in human society, it is generally bad in all walks of life but you can't avoid it. So I don't see any of your reasoning in this thread.

 

Best, HT

 

I'm with HT.

 

No two coins are alike and neither are two deals. Two willing parties need to come together to make a deal. The same as it ever was.

 

mark

 

Across the spectrum of numismatic transactions do you trust dealers or do you trust your own research? Most people would say both as long as they can do accurate research.

 

In Selling; You have people who inherit or have been otherwise given numismatics who do not know value; you have people who go to sell their own collectibles to a dealer; you have treasure hunters who found the collectibles and either want to sell or determine value.

 

In Buying; You have wealthy people looking to walk away with a macho collectible from the wild bygone days; you have people who do not have sufficient knowledge playing in the big leagues. You have people who have done varying levels of research looking to pick up a bullion or numismatic item.

 

What is fair? Business ethics is a refined science, available in many sources. If something is legal it is not necessarily right. Coin shops are better at following reasonable rules than pawn shops, who sells to them anyway at steep losses? They usually make the argument that no one forced someone to engage in a transaction, put a gun to their head, which is one of the stupidest arguments out there in the face of so many tactics of trickery.

 

Educating the collecting public on the forums is one of the best tools, people usually cannot hide from scrutiny in this and so many forums. Coin clubs and shows are another option, but I have heard so much erroneous advice in those sectors that the caveats are vital.

 

As for dealers getting ripped off by collectors, not likely though I have had a few cases where a dealer quoted a low price I pointed out their error and they adjusted them. And on currency so many notes that double in the next higher grade get undergraded when buying and either certified at much higher levels than bought without recourse on the part of the seller. One dealer did not know how to look up value on currency and I pointed them in the right direction but I keep seeing the mistake.

 

 

[World Colonial]

As to customers getting screwed: Wise up and learn something before you pay big money on coins. It seems to me people jump in before doing in kind of education they whine when they get taken.

 

jom

 

I agree with your point but have another one..

 

For the general collector population and yes, even a decent if not large number of potential bigger budget buyers, "wising up" takes more effort than it is worth for the coins they would otherwise like to buy.

 

TPG and the internet have leveled the playing field with dealers a lot but as a result of the price level and price structure, I believe when someone makes an error, the chances are they are going to lose more or a greater percentage of their purchase price than they would have in the past. I apply the same reasoning to CAC.

 

The jargon here such as "A", "B" and "C" coins, "originality", "monster toning", I don't believe most collectors (those who are not "hard core" such as here) can be bothered with that. They just want to buy coins for their collection without losing their shirt. This is, after all, supposed to be a hobby, isn't it?

 

To anticipate a potential response, I am aware that these buyers can (or should) just buy cheaper or lower grade coins. That's fine for those who participate at the higher levels until (of course), they go to sell and there are fewer buyers than there otherwise would or could be for their coins.

 

I believe the culture from the practices discussed here and on PCGS won't impact the collector base as long as prices are stable or not declining. It's bad enough in a rising market to later find out you didn't get what you thought you paid for, never mind falling one.