Why do people do this?

[JIM F.]

Try to sell a PCGS MS coin as a Proof.

 

Seems to me this is a bit shady.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent-1c-Coin-PCGS-MS-63-BN-Brown-Matte-Proof-/191680600899?hash=item2ca10ddb43:g:4U4AAOSwLVZV5zaq

 

...and another one.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1912-Lincoln-Wheat-Cent-Coin-PCGS-Genuine-UNC-Details-Quest-Color-Matte-Proof-/181894180726?hash=item2a59bcef76:g:LKAAAOSwHnFV5zQy

[e1cnr]

just offer then $50 for the brown cent

[BillJones]

It's beyond shady. It's more like in a dark cave.

 

While Matte Proof cents can be bears for the average collector to authenticate, it doesn't take a genius to read the label on the holder.

 

Here's another angle. How many dealers sell genuine, attractive 1909-VDB Matte Proof cents for $2,495.00? The retail value is $8,500.00 in PR-63, brown.

[physics-fan3.14]

That seller is well known for trying to pass a lot of things off as "proof" or "specimen strike" or "branch mint proof," and even when the facts disagree he will continue to market them that way. A lot of people really respect him for some reason (why, I'm not entirely sure), though many of his sales methods come across as extremely dubious. I do not deal with this guy.

[coinman_23885]

A lot of people really respect him for some reason (why, I'm not entirely sure), though many of his sales methods come across as extremely dubious. I do not deal with this guy.

 

I'm guessing that those that respect him do so in large part due to his membership in the PNG and as an expert on the PCGS Board of Experts. For the longest time, those were accolades that I respected but no longer do so and not because of Julian (although I do not approve of many of his listing practices such as those seen in this thread).

 

The final straw for me was when the media reported that a PNG member, recipient of the PNG lifetime achievement award for combating numismatic fraud and thievery, and PCGS Board of Expert member hired actors to hype up the initial sale of the 2014 Gold Kennedy. After creating this artificial hype, it was reported that the same dealer also was implicated in the sale of the first sold gold Kennedy for $100,000. If true, the fact that this dealer still resides on the PCGS BOE, was not stripped of his award, and is still a PNG member speaks volumes about those organizations in my humble opinion.

 

I'll get off my soapbox now. For legal purposes, everything was intended as the expression of opinion as opposed to fact, and no claims of legal wrongdoing, express or implied are made. Regardless, it is safe to say that I disapprove of the situation.

[TonerGuy]

I wonder if he would buy my raw "proof" Peace $ ...

[Kapimono]

All he needs to do is get a MAC sticker saying it's a matte proof and then it's law. For a few bucks, MAC will say it's whatever you want it to say. Ok, MAC rant over.

[Raisethis2]

I've met Julian. I'm of the opinion that his hired help must be posting on E-Bay for him. I'd be surprised if he's computer savvy. (seriously).

[AHFreak]

Course he would. ... he'd buy it as a Mint State coin and then list it/try to sell it as a proof.... from the looks of things, your coin is exactly the type of opportunity he is looking for.

[MarkFeld]

I've met Julian. I'm of the opinion that his hired help must be posting on E-Bay for him. I'd be surprised if he's computer savvy. (seriously).

 

Even if someone else posts the listngs for him, I would make a large wager that the "matte proof" wording is his. I believe I have seen Julian comment on/defend other listings of his, such as a branch-mint Morgan Dollar designated as a business strike, but which he described as a Proof.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I've met Julian. I'm of the opinion that his hired help must be posting on E-Bay for him. I'd be surprised if he's computer savvy. (seriously).

 

I think there may be 2 Julians, then.

[david3142]

I worked for Julian briefly after college before starting my full-time job. He may have help with his listings but this tactic is very likely his. I think he's an honest guy although he does seem to price things on the high end. This, however is a little shady. If you honestly believe that it's a proof, submit it again or talk to one of the experts. I'm sure he could get a five minute conversation with an on-site grader at a major show. Also, pricing it at 1/3 of the value says to me "I think there's a 30% chance I'm right," which doesn't match with the description. I'd be curious to know how much he paid for the coin. At least he mentions both ANACS and PCGS disagree with him.

He posts ATS, but haven't seen him here.

[jom]

I worked for Julian briefly after college before starting my full-time job. He may have help with his listings but this tactic is very likely his. I think he's an honest guy although he does seem to price things on the high end. This, however is a little shady. If you honestly believe that it's a proof, submit it again or talk to one of the experts. I'm sure he could get a five minute conversation with an on-site grader at a major show. Also, pricing it at 1/3 of the value says to me "I think there's a 30% chance I'm right," which doesn't match with the description. I'd be curious to know how much he paid for the coin. At least he mentions both ANACS and PCGS disagree with him.

He posts ATS, but haven't seen him here.

 

Julian does post here.

 

As to this "proof" coin: what if someone did buy it as such? What would happen do you think if the coin could not get certified as proof and the buyer eventually decided it wasn't a proof and he wanted his money back. Do you think Julian would return his purchase price? I do.

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

I worked for Julian briefly after college before starting my full-time job. He may have help with his listings but this tactic is very likely his. I think he's an honest guy although he does seem to price things on the high end. This, however is a little shady. If you honestly believe that it's a proof, submit it again or talk to one of the experts. I'm sure he could get a five minute conversation with an on-site grader at a major show. Also, pricing it at 1/3 of the value says to me "I think there's a 30% chance I'm right," which doesn't match with the description. I'd be curious to know how much he paid for the coin. At least he mentions both ANACS and PCGS disagree with him.

He posts ATS, but haven't seen him here.

 

Julian does post here.

 

As to this "proof" coin: what if someone did buy it as such? What would happen do you think if the coin could not get certified as proof and the buyer eventually decided it wasn't a proof and he wanted his money back. Do you think Julian would return his purchase price? I do.

 

jom

 

I don't. The coin/coins has/have already failed to be certified as Proof.