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Cherrypicked a matte proof dies 1F 1921 P$

Started by mumu,

59 posts in this topic

mumu

mumu

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From Apmex of all places. She's a little beat up but I've been looking for one for awhile so she will do until the next one comes along.

 

s-l1600.jpg

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mumu

mumu

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I wonder what the fascination is with this variety?

 

Well, the answer is quite obvious. Proof dollars are unattainable. Proof like peace dollars are rarely seen. What does that leave as a tie to the proof world?

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

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I like it. I only have one and its raw and I dont remember which exact VAM it is but it was struck from proof dies as well. I think cherrypicking one is a great pick up especially for a Peace $ enthusiast. And it has a cool history behind it.

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RJP

RJP

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You made me do some research to fine out about this one.

Very nice 1921 Peace VAM-1F Matte Proof Dies with Polishing Lines.

I can see the heavy die polishing lines around 'WE'.

 

 

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RWB

RWB

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There are three "critters" involved in 1921 proof dollars:

 

Satin proof, sandblast proof, and sandblast circulation.

 

The first was made on a medal press and has nearly full detail over the entire coin. The surface was not altered.

 

The second was made identically to a satin proof, and then the coin was sandblasted. This altered the surfaces and very slightly blurred some detail.

 

The third was made on a normal toggle press, and then sandblasted and sometimes antiqued. When done at the Philadelphia Mint, the purpose was to enhance the design's medalic appeal. When sandblasted outside of Mint control, the purpose was to defraud collectors.

 

There are several pieces traditionally called "matte" or sandblast proof that lack the detail of a medal press product. There are also some that were clearly antiqued and sandblasted, but are also not from medal press manufacture.

 

Can anyone identify when the "VAM F1" was first described as a "proof die" and what the comparison coin was? (If the comparison coin was not a medal press product, then the attribution as coming from "proof dies" is incorrect.)

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

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From VAMWORLD...

 

 

1921-P Peace VAM-1F Matte Proof Dies with Polishing Lines

Discovered by David Close, February 2005.

 

1F I 1 · Aa (Matte Proof Dies with Polishing Lines) I-4 R-5

Obverse I 1– Heavy die polishing lines around WE that are horizontal and curving up to left. Two short spikes from neck just below jaw. Light polishing lines all over fields. Die markers– Two horizontal spikes from neck below jaw and hooked vertical line bent to right at top of right diagonal bar of V in TRVST. Die used for matte proofs and business strikes.

Reverse Aa– Heavy die polishing lines around eagle’s feet with fine polishing lines all over fields. Die markers– Light polishing line thru top bar of E in ONE parallel to ray above it and double vertical polishing line up from middle of right side of A in DOLLAR. Die used for matte proofs and business strikes.

 

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mumu

mumu

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Got a link for the auction?

I would like to go and look at their listing.

 

Well that's where it gets snarky. I came across the coin on ebay. I read the entire auction and it didn't say stock image anywhere in the listing. They have a picture of the slab, front and reverse of same coin. Its not a stock image ive seen them used before.

 

Everything about the listing made it seem like it was for that exact coin. So I tracked the same listing on their website. Same deal there. So I bought it on their website. Expecting the coin to come off the ebay listing after I bought, never happened. So I contacted them. They then told me both the ebay listing and the website listing are to be ASSUMED as stock images even if not stated on the listing.

 

The Ebay listing is still active with 0 bids.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141832506894?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

 

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mumu

mumu

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Unless they state it is a stock image in the ebay auction, they are violating the site rules. You could press for compensation.

 

That was my plan. I am going to snipe the auction listing in case anyone bids on it to put them in a full court press if the coin in fact exists. Although a side of me is just saying let it go and find a nice MS 65 elsewhere. This one being a low end 64 at best might make more sense to let it fly away. Though Id rather find a nice 65 with one in hand and upgrade it as well.

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

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Nice cut-and-paste, but does not help with answering the comparison question.

 

I think you should probably contact the nice people over at VAMWORLD and they might be able to answer your question...

 

They even have a forum over there were you can post your questions as well...

 

http://www.vamworld.com/page/messages/home

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mumu

mumu

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Already in contact with David Close. Thanks for the info.

 

Reach out to Apmex too, let them know I'm not happy right now.

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mumu

mumu

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Well I got the coin today, and it is the 1F pictures on both the website and the ebay listing. I guess this was the simplest path to getting this resolved as I can just cancel the ebay win. Coin looks better in hand than in the pics. I no longer think its a 63. Has a nice strike for a 21.

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mumu

mumu

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RWB is like "Why do you guys bother with these $1000 coins...just get the half million dollar real thing."

 

Yeah my butler staff says the same thing.

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mumu

mumu

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.

me too.

 

these seem to be known in ms64, 65 and 66.

 

mine are xf/au. a long gap between our coins. lol

 

i will get my pics to vw in the next couple weeks i hope.

 

tons of neat pups.

 

looks like the tough one is the 1g or maybe 1h, in unc.

.

 

I think they are a recent attribution so who knows what the real numbers are. But the 1F and the 1H are Elite 30s so they are probably the ones registry people look out for the most. The 1F shows 11 graded attributed units and the 1H shows 21.

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RWB

RWB

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RWB is like "Why do you guys bother with these $1000 coins...just get the half million dollar real thing."

 

Nope. My questions are about the attribution of 1921 VAM 1F as "proof dies" in the first place. That is why I sent a message to the discoverer, David Close. (Heck, I can't afford the $1,000 coins.....let alone the $1/2 million vintage.) ;)

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TonerGuy

TonerGuy

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There are three "critters" involved in 1921 proof dollars:

 

Satin proof, sandblast proof, and sandblast circulation.

 

The first was made on a medal press and has nearly full detail over the entire coin. The surface was not altered.

 

The second was made identically to a satin proof, and then the coin was sandblasted. This altered the surfaces and very slightly blurred some detail.

 

The third was made on a normal toggle press, and then sandblasted and sometimes antiqued. When done at the Philadelphia Mint, the purpose was to enhance the design's medalic appeal. When sandblasted outside of Mint control, the purpose was to defraud collectors.

 

There are several pieces traditionally called "matte" or sandblast proof that lack the detail of a medal press product. There are also some that were clearly antiqued and sandblasted, but are also not from medal press manufacture.

 

Can anyone identify when the "VAM F1" was first described as a "proof die" and what the comparison coin was? (If the comparison coin was not a medal press product, then the attribution as coming from "proof dies" is incorrect.)

 

RWB - if the dies were taken from the medal press and then used on the normal press why would that action preclude the resulting coin from being considered "being struck" from proof dies ? I can certainly understand the coins not being considered proof but why do you believe the attribution is incorrect ?

 

Are the medal press dies not able to be used on the toggle press ?

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