Cherrypicked a matte proof dies 1F 1921 P$

[RWB]

There was no reason not to use the proof dies for regular production. Dies cost about $25 each and would have been in high demand during the last week of December in which the first circulation coins were made.

 

(Proof dies and circulation dies were identical; only the type of press differed.)

 

My question comes from the observation that some 1921 pieces traditionally described as "proof coins" were not made on a medal press. These pieces lack the detail and clarity of design that would come from a medal press product. Therefore, they are not proofs as that term is normally used. (Whether or not the coin was sandblasted is immaterial.)

 

If the original attributor inadvertently used one or more of the sandblasted non-medal press coins as his reference "proof," the attribution of 1921 VAM1F as being "from proof dies" might be incorrect.

[oldcollectorcoins]

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the possible context is one of 2 from rwb. i presume.

 

1. how do they know these are from proof dies

 

2. why take the time/effort to label as such and why all the fuss (this is what i basically thought he meant as it doesnt take much numis knowledge to match pups up to determine if a coin is from proof dies one the coins have been studied). i confirmed my 2 inside 1-2 mintues. (scratch this,i just saw the response above mine as rwb was typing his as i was mine doh, the timing. wow)

 

now if a master proof hub? makes working proof dies, this goes well beyond my level of study/desire at this point.

 

to further vam/silver dollar study, i do support tracking these since coins struck from proof dies can lead to die incest and "important" die and die state studies but tracking and importance arent always synonymous.

 

i do also appreciate someone matching up b.s. coins struck from proof dies. certainly took some experience, study, time, effort etc to bring this info to light and puts the question to rest, "were b.s. peace dollars struck from proof dies."

 

also, if i can get a dc out of thus/these study, i will.

.

[RWB]

"now if a master proof hub? makes working proof dies..."

 

There was no such critter as a "master proof hub."

 

Proof dies and production dies were identical for satin proofs and sandblast proofs.

 

To make brilliant proofs, a normal production die was polished.

 

But - ALL proofs were made on a high-pressure medal press. This brought up most of the detail present in the die (and present in all dies).

 

For VAMpires, the attribution is meaningful, regardless of an increase in value. A 1921 VAM 1F attribution is interesting to have. (Most VAMs have no special monetary value, but aficionados enjoy them and the information can occasionally aid other research.)

[TonerGuy]

But - ALL proofs were made on a high-pressure medal press. This brought up most of the detail present in the die (and present in all dies).

 

 

Very interesting and thank you for the education/information...

 

The one 21 Peace VAM 1H I own is an interesting coin... unfortunately it has been cleaned but its the most fully struck Peace $ Ive ever held. There is no weakness in the hair or on the eagle. Without the cleaning the coin would probably grade MS65/66.

 

At one point I had it examined at the LB show and I had a split on whether it was a proof or just a business strike. (10 silver $ experts looked the coin through a proxy) The expert consensus was 6-4 against it being a proof. I was told it was struck from proof dies though... (this was prior to the VAM 1H discovery) but it wasnt a proof.

 

I was also told it wasnt a proof because there was no way to verify when it was struck and therefore it was not a "presentation" coin or a special issue. Basically, the first 20 coins struck were considered proof and the 21st coin onward were not considered proof (I may not remember the number correctly but that was the gist of what I was told).

 

If I had to put a date on any of this I would say it was probably in 2002/2003. Well before your research and even before the proof die discovery coins.

 

So in your research -- did you even come across how many coins were struck on the medal press ? And would you consider all of them to be proofs ?

[RWB]

Basically, the first 20 coins struck were considered proof and the 21st coin onward were not considered proof.

 

Sorry, the statement above is entirely bologna. Proof coins were struck on a medal press, only. There are no exceptions in the era involved.

 

The Guide Book of Peace Dollars has estimates, and I feel these are very close to the actual quantities. Medal press proofs were made for design review and management approval. They were not intended for collectors; they also were not considered "special" by the mint and were easily acquired by mint staff who wanted a souvenir or two.

 

If you post a sharp photo of your coin, I'm sure members would like to see it.

[mumu]

If you post a sharp photo of your coin, I'm sure members would like to see it.

 

+1

[TonerGuy]

Basically, the first 20 coins struck were considered proof and the 21st coin onward were not considered proof.

 

Sorry, the statement above is entirely bologna. Proof coins were struck on a medal press, only. There are no exceptions in the era involved.

 

The Guide Book of Peace Dollars has estimates, and I feel these are very close to the actual quantities. Medal press proofs were made for design review and management approval. They were not intended for collectors; they also were not considered "special" by the mint and were easily acquired by mint staff who wanted a souvenir or two.

 

If you post a sharp photo of your coin, I'm sure members would like to see it.

 

Im just relaying what I was told. Until your posts and your book I hadnt even thought about the coin or whether it was made on a medal press vs. toggle press. I dont have any photos of the coin. Since it was cleaned - I just put into an album and forgot about it. I only bought 12 yrs ago because of the strike and never thought it could be a proof or struck from proof dies until I showed it to a dealer who commented how strong the strike was and how it could be a proof.

 

However, perhaps based on your comments I might revisit the issue since any Mint staff could have purchased one of the proofs. I will have to dig it out and take another look. Again, thank you for your comments.

[RWB]

There are multiple points used to identify a medal press proof from a coin made on a toggle press. However, at various times, organizations and individuals have made assumptions or uncritical examinations that eventually confused the status of some pieces.

 

This illustration might help (or possibly confuse) a little:

 

Here's a reference photo for a nicely detailed (i.e., well struck) 1921: Take particular notice of the fullness of lettering and central hair.

 

[mumu]

There are multiple points used to identify a medal press proof from a coin made on a toggle press. However, at various times, organizations and individuals have made assumptions or uncritical examinations that eventually confused the status of some pieces.

 

This illustration might help (or possibly confuse) a little:

 

Here's a reference photo for a nicely detailed (i.e., well struck) 1921: Take particular notice of the fullness of lettering and central hair.

 

 

Couple things about your image. The 34,000? for the 22 rev of 22 is confusing. Is there a difference between a regular 1922 Peace dollar with mintage of 51+ mil and a 22 rev 22? Isnt a normal peace$ a 22 with a rev of 22?

 

And as for your "Nicely struck" 21...that is an understatement. The coin doesn't even look like a normal 21 and you don't find those in the wild. Is that just somebody's peace dollar that allowed you to share the image for your books or is it something from the mint or some archive? The coin almost looks like clay or a retouch. It certainly has special lighting whatever it is. But in any case coins like that in any series don't appear in the wild as available. To aspire to owning a strike like that is as unlikely as a proof.

 

That being said the owner of the most expensive coin ever has stated that strike does not matter whatsoever so what do I know.

[mumu]

I just rolled some relative big dice on another P$ purchase. WiIl update when in hand. Wish me luck.

[RWB]

Thanks for pointing out the possible confusion on the 1922s. All of the 1922-date pieces are either high relief or medium relief patterns. The low relief coins are not illustrated since there were no major changes made to the low relief version.

 

I own the "nicely detailed" 1921. Lighting is a mixture of axial and diffuse to reduce the harshness of pure axial lighting.

 

Yes, "strike" (really design detail), does matter unless the coin is unique or nearly so.

 

Good luck on the new 1921 Peace dollar purchase.

 

(There is a diagram showing central design details in the Guide Book for Peace Dollars book. This coin and the original iron cast are illustrated there.)

[mumu]

Thanks for pointing out the possible confusion on the 1922s. All of the 1922-date pieces are either high relief or medium relief patterns. The low relief coins are not illustrated since there were no major changes made to the low relief version.

 

I own the "nicely detailed" 1921. Lighting is a mixture of axial and diffuse to reduce the harshness of pure axial lighting.

 

Yes, "strike" (really design detail), does matter unless the coin is unique or nearly so.

 

Good luck on the new 1921 Peace dollar purchase.

 

(There is a diagram showing central design details in the Guide Book for Peace Dollars book. This coin and the original iron cast are illustrated there.)

 

Is your 21 graded or raw? Looks like it is imaged raw?

 

My new purchase isn't a 21 but thanks.

[RWB]

I haven't bothered with authentication/grading - I'm not a fan of plastic holders that diminish the appearance of a coin. It's in a CoinTain holder for protection and easy removal for examination.

 

Enjoy your hobby - that's the most important part.

[mumu]

I haven't bothered with authentication/grading - I'm not a fan of plastic holders that diminish the appearance of a coin. It's in a CoinTain holder for protection and easy removal for examination.

 

Enjoy your hobby - that's the most important part.

 

I don't think the coin I just bought is one YOU would fancy. But if you come across a 21 with that same strike as yours for sale, point her my way.

[RWB]

There is a collector who mostly posts on PCGS who has a very nice 1921. You might ask to see a photo over there.

 

My coin interests seldom relate to monetary value. Interest is in historical or production-related value.

[mumu]

RWB I don't know if this answers the question you sent the vamworld guy but here is a matte proof and you can see the die markers used to attribute the vam. The die polish coming off the neck and the straw coming out of the left wing of the V are there such as in the MS 1F

 

I think maybe part of the confusion is PCGS price guide lists only a matte proof and rolls in what vamworld calls stin proof into that? Not sure if they grade these that way as well.

 

http://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-peace-dollars/1921-1-matte-pr65-ngc-ex-jack-lee-formerly-offered/a/308-8375.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

 

 

And here is a vam 1F

 

http://coins.ha.com/itm/peace-dollars/1921-1-vam-1f-matte-proof-dies-ms65-pcgs-cac/a/1216-6229.s#

 

 

 

[RWB]

Thanks for the illustrations. My question to David Close was what 1921 proof was used as the reference coin.

 

The 1921 sandblast proof image is not sharp enough to be conclusive, but it resembles the 1F if I blur the 1F. The ex Lee coin appears to be a medal press proof, so if the two coins share identical polishing marks (such as from the neck to the left), then the same die was used for both. That would confirm that VAM 1F obverse die was used to strike proofs, and then later used for circulation production. The same applies to the reverse.

 

(Assuming that is correct, notice the difference in detail between the two coins. This is due entirely to the coin manufacturing method....although sandblasting of the proof softens detail slightly.)

[mumu]

I would focus on the little die gouge or whatever it is on the 2nd V slash. It shoots up and then to the right. This seems to be unique to all Matte proofs and not any other coins except the 1F. I think that is a little more unique than the die polishing lines at the neck. There is also a reverse marker on the A.

[oldcollectorcoins]

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images of my 2 coins with a lot of close-up pups now on the 1g & 1h pages.

 

the 1f-1g share the obv die and many pups.

 

the 4 listings i see for proof die - bs flan strikes.

 

1f - 1g - 1h - 1p

.

.

[TonerGuy]

I finally looked at my 21 again... and its a 1H but its not the same as the 1st example show at http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+Peace+VAM-1H It matches the 2nd example...

 

And when I compared the strike on the obverse its identical to the strike on the coin that RWB posted - especially in the hair detail. On the reverse, this is only a slight hint of flatness directly above the eagle's leg. Otherwise every feather is complete. Shame someone cleaned it long ago...

[RWB]

Sounds like you found a nice coin!

[oldcollectorcoins]

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i'm picking up a 1p today. will get pup images for the page like the ones on the 1g &1h.

 

there are 2 lines under the tailfeathers i now see as an attempt to re-engrave? the ray.

 

those lines appear on an amazing amount of reverses. from proof die coins and not.

 

so does a master hub make the dies that becomes both b.s. and various proof dies?

.

[RWB]

All dies for 1921 Peace dollars came from the same master hub. Dies for proof and circulation use were all the same. However, some dies had slightly better detail than others simply as a result of them being manufactured individually. The hardness of planchets had as much to do with detail on a coin as the striking pressure. Working dies were also subject to pre-use cleaning and surface repair.

 

If you are asking about re-engraving the lowest ray below the tail, then no, it was that way on the hub. Remember that George Morgan recut much of the lower reverse hub to remove the broken sword. Many coins show fine engraving lines at the edges of olive leaves. These are remnants of Morgan's work.

 

(PS: It will make it easier to understand your questions/comments if you use capitalization and complete sentences. Thanks!)

[TonerGuy]

Sounds like you found a nice coin!

 

Thank you. But for the obverse cleaning it really is. The reverse wasnt cleaned though so I dont really know why that is...

 

Was there a common practice that collectors would only clean one side of a coin ?

[mumu]

Sounds like you found a nice coin!

 

Thank you. But for the obverse cleaning it really is. The reverse wasnt cleaned though so I dont really know why that is...

 

Was there a common practice that collectors would only clean one side of a coin ?

 

Side facing up in album? I can picture a nice old lady running a polishing cloth over the top.of an album proudly presented on a table, ruining the whole thing.

[RWB]

Cleaning coins was once commonplace and a recommended practice.

[TonerGuy]

Cleaning coins was once commonplace and a recommended practice.

 

I get that but only one side... ..

[oldcollectorcoins]

Cleaning coins was once commonplace and a recommended practice.

 

still is in some areas.

 

watched a docu. regarding some festival or celebrated gathering and cleaning coins and had something to do with some hotel or travel lodge.

 

the whole thing was odd to me.

.

[RWB]

Coins pulled from "wishing wells," fountains and other places people toss coins, are routinely cleaned and disinfected before being deposited in banks.