Question about Col. E.H.R. Green

[A.Phillips]

I am wondering if there is a list of E.H.R. Green's coin collection? I have tried to looking for it on Google and on this forum's search engine, but no luck. I only find his biography on Wiki, but that's not what I am looking for. Just wonder what coins he has in his collection.

[Tyler N.]

You could try Heritage.

[RWB]

It will eventually be available through the NNP.

[Conder101]

Yes Eric Newman was the one that bought Greens collection ( a group at a time) so if anyone had a list of everything that was in it it would be him.

[RWB]

Eric Newman did not buy all - or even "most" - of the Col. Green coin collection. There is an extant inventory/appraisal made for the Green Estate.

 

Mr. Newman's collection was not built to make money but to generate data and information on U.S. coinage. He was a collector and researcher in the old-school sense of the phrase, and not some idle accumulator of rarities.

 

The Heritage Auction catalogs will give you a good view of Mr. Newman's collection.

 

 

[DWLange]

The Eric P. Newman Numismatic Portal recently acquired and scanned the invoices of Burdette Johnson, the St. Louis coin dealer who partnered with Newman in buying the Green coins. These invoices run 1940-47 and denote the Green coins in red or with the word "red."

 

https://archive.org/details/newmannumismatic

[RWB]

The NNP presently shows only 257 invoices scanned. There are many more to come. (For example, there are 103 invoices for 1946-Jan 1947 and many of these are 3-5 pages long. Eventually, you will be able to cross search all of them at one time by key word or phrase, date, and other useful information.

 

I suggest patience. Much more information - all carefully researched and verified - will be available soon.

[A.Phillips]

Great! Thank you y'all!

[Nutmeg Coin]

Green's personal life is just as interesting as the coins, though I find a military title to be questionable, now there are rules against that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Howland_Robinson_Green http://www.cityofsmoke.com/archives/1638

[DWLange]

Green's entire collection of half dollars was purchased en bloc form Martin L. Beistle in 1928. This was Beistle's own collection that he used in preparing his 1929 book on the series. While researching my book on National Coin Albums at the Beistle Company in Shippensburg, PA, I was shown the original correspondence and invoices between Beistle and Green that confirmed this.

 

Green also purchased hundreds of Beistle's Unique Coin Holders to hold all of his coins, and this product is what was later named the National Coin Album by Wayte Raymond when he bought the rights from Beistle. That's where the better pieces in the Newman Collection got their colorful toning.

[RWB]

"Col." was not a true military rank. It was a Texas State Militia honorary title awarded by the governor for any-purpose-or-service-the-governor-thought-of.

 

As for the Wikidoodle biography .... some is right and some is wrong.

[RWB]

Green Estate Coin/Currency Inventory.

 

Kolbe & Fanning Numismatic Booksellers LLC sold in the 1/7/2012 sale:

 

Lot 287 "The Notarized Inventory of the Legendary Colonel Green Collection, Boldly Signed by F.C.C. Boyd" estimate $30k, brought $35k

 

Lot 288 "Morton M. Stack’s Deluxe Set of the Fabled Photographic Record of the Colonel Green Collection of United States Quarter Eagles, Half Eagles, & Eagles" estimate $50k, brought $35k

 

Lot 289 "The Fabled Photographic Record of the Colonel Green Collection of United States Half Eagles" estimate $15k, brought $10k

 

Lot 290 "The Fabled Photographic Record of the Colonel Green Collection of United States Eagles" estimate $15k, brought $10k

 

[WillieBoyd2]

Col. Green and his mother Hetty were both interesting characters.

 

Hetty Green was an extreme example of wealthy people being "cheap".

 

[RWB]

For a balanced and realistic biography of Hettie Green, see:

 

The Richest Woman in America: Hetty Green in the Gilded Age by Janet Wallach.

 

The book has some annoying geographical errors and other minor mistakes that should have been caught during editing. But it is also clear and far more objective about Mrs. Green that earlier materials. In essence, she was like most of her financial counterparts with the exception of being female. She avoided ostentation and left no great mansions to molder. She was a "Buffett-style" long-term investor and seldom speculated.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I'm sure that is all true, but she strikes me as particularly unbalanced suffering from a serious psychological condition judging from her behavior. A cheap, chiseling skinflint of a tightwad, who couldn't see more than a few inches ahead regarding the consequences of her extreme avarice. Then as the son tried to grow-up he was forever burdened by the penny-pinching "mother" who must have saddled him with serious mental burdens, and his later generosity as well as outlandish behavior seemed to give evidence of his attempt to find freedom from Hetty's devious ways.

[Conder101]

Thanks for the suggestion Roger, I've ordered a copy

[RWB]

I'm sure that is all true, but she strikes me as particularly unbalanced suffering from a serious psychological condition judging from her behavior. A cheap, chiseling skinflint of a tightwad, who couldn't see more than a few inches ahead regarding the consequences of her extreme avarice. Then as the son tried to grow-up he was forever burdened by the penny-pinching "mother" who must have saddled him with serious mental burdens, and his later generosity as well as outlandish behavior seemed to give evidence of his attempt to find freedom from Hetty's devious ways.

 

The quoted material is a good example of judgement by innuendo. Much of it exaggeration or highly biased opinion.

 

Hetty Green was little different that other successful financial people of her era. All of them had their quirks, but among them Hetty Green had a reputation for honesty and integrity few others shared. In financial dealings she concentrated on making secured loans and preferred receiving timely payments to foreclosing. She did not seek the spotlight or flaunt her wealth. She was also a domineering mother, although in her last years Ed ('Ned') ran the business with excellent success.

 

Her son and daughter certainly were negatively influenced by Hetty's reclusive behavior. However, Ned did a lot of his mother's leg work (cork leg an all) and later years ran the Texas Midland Rail Road. He experimented with radio communication between a moving train and stations, and this early interest eventually led to his support of broadcast radio and the MIT radio navigation program. Ned Green was one of the earliest to provide financial backing for basic research, rather than corporate product research ala Sarnoff.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I'm sure that is all true, but she strikes me as particularly unbalanced suffering from a serious psychological condition judging from her behavior. A cheap, chiseling skinflint of a tightwad, who couldn't see more than a few inches ahead regarding the consequences of her extreme avarice. Then as the son tried to grow-up he was forever burdened by the penny-pinching "mother" who must have saddled him with serious mental burdens, and his later generosity as well as outlandish behavior seemed to give evidence of his attempt to find freedom from Hetty's devious ways.

 

The quoted material is a good example of judgement by innuendo. Much of it exaggeration or highly biased opinion.

 

Hetty Green was little different that other successful financial people of her era. All of them had their quirks, but among them Hetty Green had a reputation for honesty and integrity few others shared. In financial dealings she concentrated on making secured loans and preferred receiving timely payments to foreclosing. She did not seek the spotlight or flaunt her wealth. She was also a domineering mother, although in her last years Ed ('Ned') ran the business with excellent success.

 

Her son and daughter certainly were negatively influenced by Hetty's reclusive behavior. However, Ned did a lot of his mother's leg work (cork leg an all) and later years ran the Texas Midland Rail Road. He experimented with radio communication between a moving train and stations, and this early interest eventually led to his support of broadcast radio and the MIT radio navigation program. Ned Green was one of the earliest to provide financial backing for basic research, rather than corporate product research ala Sarnoff.

 

There is plenty of evidence to support my claim like this article: http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/social-history/2007/the-woman-who-loved-money

[RWB]

Actually, the article simply repeats the same old falsehoods and innuendo. Repeating lies does not make them true and does not support your claims.

 

 

Please read the biography then see how facts mesh with the old tales. (I am not saying that Hettie Green would be considered 'normal' by modern standards -- she was certainly eccentric and absolutely did things contrary to rich society expectations. After all, she was a woman doing things that were socially unacceptable in her era: making a lot of money and getting the best of some of the biggest names in Robber Barondom.)

[Nutmeg Coin]

There is this review of the book: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/30/the-richest-woman-in-america-hetty-green-in-the-gilded-age.html I'll check the book out, too bad there aren't many long balanced articles on her sorting out fact from the unverifiable.

[DaveG]

Wow - what a prejudiced (as in pre-judged) review.

 

If the tone of that review is typical of the Daily Beast, I'm glad I don't read it.

[RWB]

As noted, the book is not perfect and includes some incomprehensibly silly errors - Atlanta, GA hasn't been a port city since the last Ice Age began..... But, there is no requirement that popular articles, or popular numismatic articles, contain accurate or unbiased information. Sensation sells. Outlandish presentation gets more attention than reality.....look at contemporary fear mongers, hatred purveyors, sensationalists, and self-serving ideologues.

 

Hettie was sometimes outlandish, superstitious and parsimonious - as most people are at times. She just had more money and envious enemies than others.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I finished the book recently on Hetty Green; it was quite sympathetic to all her ordeals.

 

Amazon as usual has many reader reviews: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307474577/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687462&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0060542578&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0Z8RPJJ1DPJN79G6SEHG

[RWB]

Today, Hettie would likely be too virtuous and honest for Wall Street.

 

Hope the book was interesting.

[LNCS]

Interesting thread. I was looking at the invoices and saw all of those marked with "red". Now I know what that means.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Today, Hettie would likely be too virtuous and honest for Wall Street.

 

Hope the book was interesting.

 

She may have been virtuous in the sense of not squandering her fortune on frivolity as many of her peers did, nor did she live the life of a dilettante as most of the upper classes tended toward. And her business acumen was well-developed, but my guess is that the profitable whaling of her previous generation was far more challenging than the railroad and banking businesses. I can see how she became as she was surrounded by tough and inflexible Quakers of that age (how they have changed as a religion). But most of western philosophical traditions were staunchly against the stinginess and greed she practiced to a fault. The Christian tradition regards greed as one of the greatest vices. But if her father and aunt were poisoned, that would be further explanation of her paranoia, traveling around under assumed names, lying when it protected her self-interest, etc.. And while the book is better than many sensational types these days, there were a number of reviews on Amazon pointing that the biography is by no means definitive or first class. Her fortune was scattered like confetti into many social and government programs after her heirs died.

[leeg]

“Col. E.H.R. Green was one of the most colorful collectors the American numismatic scene has ever encountered. The son of eccentric Wall Street financier Hetty Green. Col. E.H.R. Green at one time owned all five of the five known 1913 Liberty head nickels, emulated Virgil Brand in that if one rarity was nice to own, a dozen were even nicer, and in general “cornered” many different scarce and rare varieties. His estate was disposed of in the early 1940s."1

 

 

Col. E. H. R. Green. Courtesy San Antonio (Tx.) Express, Sunday Morning, December 16, 1934.

 

 

The American Architect–The Architectural Review. House of Colonel E. H. R. Green, South Dartmouth, Mass., Alfred C. Bossom, Architect, (From the original pencil sketch by L. J. Keimig). VOL. CXXII, NO. 2398, July 19, 1922, p. 56.

 

 

Opened Case for 1935 Texas Independence Centennial Half Dollar P/D/S set with Col. E. H. R. Green pedigree. Courtesy Bill Shamhart at Numismatic Americana.

 

 

These rarities have been specifically mentioned by Swiatek as being "presentation pieces," based on their rarity and the fact that they are seen in the special foil boxes, as here. The box is gold foil covered, with a light green velvet insert allowing space for a single coin. The inside lid is imprinted as follows, "The Texas / Independence Centennial / Compliments of / E. H. R. Green" in four lines. The box is superbly preserved with all foil intact, a clean inside surface and completely intact paper hinge. Image and description courtesy of Stacks Bowers Galleries.

 

 

1 An Inside View of the Coin Hobby in the 1930s:The Walter P. Nichols File, Edited by Q. David Bowers, Bowers and Merena Galleries, Inc., Copyright 1984 by Bowers and Merena Galleries, Inc., p. 14.

 

 

[RWB]

RE: These rarities have been specifically mentioned by Swiatek as being "presentation pieces," based on their rarity and the fact that they are seen in the special foil boxes, as here.

 

The only thing special is the box. The coins were normal pieces. One could say the 'coins in their special boxes were presented to certain individuals by Col Green,' but any implication that the coins were "presentation pieces" is pure bologna.

 

For books, try - John M. Bullard, The Greens as I Knew Them. New Bedford, MA: 1964.

 

Also interesting that Green 'invented' the first hybrid electric automobile.

 

In 1921 Col. Green suffered the onset of severe rheumatoid arthritis resulting in chronic pain and functional impairment in his remaining knee and hands. From this time forward Green’s hobbies became limited to less active pursuits. “…He became especially interested in collecting stamps, coins, currency, and jewels, to which he devoted much attention. He had no interest in fashionable or social life, but preferred, as he stated, associating with the common man or ‘the man in the street.’” To aid in driving a car, he had an electric vehicle built without a gearshift or conventional transmission. The lead-acid batteries were charged during use by a small gasoline motor operating a generator. Speed was controlled by voltage from the batteries to an electric motor, and the brake was operated by Green’s left foot.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Both of "Colonel" Green's parents were brilliant people in their own right, his father had gout one of the things that led to his demise decades before Hetty. Edward was a ladies man, before and after the marriage to Hetty, one of the things that caused major rifts in the marriage, also the post civil war economic upheavals where he lost a fortune leaving Hetty on the hook. You wonder how much of these problems affected "Colonel" Green's search for his own fate. He excelled in many different areas, he seemed quite generous all around, and the numismatic connections were the stuff of legend. You wonder if his eyesight and collecting acumen were critical or that of his dealers and how he enjoyed the hobby with others.

[leeg]

RE: These rarities have been specifically mentioned by Swiatek as being "presentation pieces," based on their rarity and the fact that they are seen in the special foil boxes, as here.

 

The only thing special is the box. The coins were normal pieces. One could say the 'coins in their special boxes were presented to certain individuals by Col Green,' but any implication that the coins were "presentation pieces" is pure bologna.

 

I'm with you Roger. I haven't found anything during my research that validates the Stacks Bowers Lot Description.