1807 Capped Bust Half Question

[Broc Mitchell]

Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I will try to add pictures this evening, but wanted to get a post going to get opinions/past experiences/advice.

 

I recently bought an 1807 Capped Bust Half in an older NGC holder. Based on the photos, I felt the coin was undergraded and wanted to send it back in to NGC to get re-graded (this is an 'older' generation holder, of the type following the last 'no line' holder so sometime from the mid-1990's). I had planned to crack it and send it to be graded, BUT...

 

Under regular lighting, the coin looks perfectly original, problem free, etc. I got the coin under sunlight and found the coin has uniform hairlines. What is worse, is I checked the other coins on the same invoice using the NGC Certification checker, and the two coins that followed this coin on the invoice were both Capped Bust Half Dollars and CLEANED. This has me a little more concerned than if it was a sequence of problem free coins.

 

My first question is is it normal for a coin looks otherwise 100% original with minute but uniform hairlines to come back in a problem free holder? Is it likely this is why the coin appears undergraded (points knocked off because of the hairlines)?

 

My second question(s) is that I know NGC does crossovers from PCGS and will upgrade the coin if it is justified. Do they do re-grades for their own coins and upgrade if it is appropriate? What if the coin is actually considered a problem coin, what would they do then? I am willing to accept that this is an early date coin and some problems may be acceptable, but if this is not the case for this issue or this type of issue, I don't want to be stuck with a problem coin that somehow ended up in a problem free holder...

 

Thank you for any advice you may be able to provide!

[physics-fan3.14]

There is no easy answer to your question, but let me try:

 

First, and most importantly, yes: cleaned coins are slabbed as problem free all the time. If the coin is considered "market acceptable," then the TPG will slab them. It is very difficult to determine where the "market acceptable" line is, and it changes. Net grading happens all the time as well.

 

Second, just because the other coins on the invoice were cleaned does not mean this one was.

 

Third, sunlight is considered a very poor lighting method for coins. Viewing your coins in sunlight will give them a very different appearance than viewing them under standard halogen lamps.

 

Fourth, it is perfectly acceptable for a circulated coin to have a number of marks and lines. During circulation, a coin will pick up all sorts of marks. Viewing the coin in sunlight will tend to accentuate those marks, and you'll see every single one of them. This will make your coin look like it may have been cleaned, when it was really just circulated.

 

Fifth, if you post pictures, we can tell you more.

[Broc Mitchell]

These are some quick shots that I think illustrate to some degree the hairlines. They are not severe/deep, but are extensive.

 

physics-fan3.14, I certainly agree with all of your points. Thank you for your reply!

 

Now that the photos are posted, anyone fancy rendering an opinion as to what she should grade?

 

 

[ldhair]

I'm at VF-20 or 30. I don't think I would send it in. It's cool just the way it is. No need to spend money on it.

[Treashunt]

agreed, no need to slab

[BillJones]

First there should be no question that this coin will get a grade. I see no problems should stand in the way of it getting a straight grade.

 

With respect to WHAT grade, I would say VF-30. These early John Reich half dollars are tough to grade because his first dies did not strike up as well as most of his later work. Therefore these coins can appear to in a lower grade than they actually are. If this coin is in a VF-25 to 35 holder, it will not be worth your whilte to try for an upgrade.

 

Not to confuse you too much, but I see some mint luster within the protected areas within the stars on the obverse that would suggest EF-45. The rest of the coin does not come up to that, however, and VF-30 looks more appropriate. Some might think that the detail would suggest a low grade in the VF area, that luster says to me that the piece is better than a VF-20.

 

Not to steal your post, but here is an 1807 half that PCGS graded AU-53. You can compare the sharpness. If this piece showed a bit more detail, perhaps due to the strike, this coin might have graded higher as an AU.

 

[DWLange]

The subject coin is also a popular variety. Though listed in books as 50/20, I believe that the 5 is actually repunched over an inverted 5. Specifically, this coin is Overton-112, and it's worth having that variety added to the certification. This does not require regrading. Instead, it may be submitted for VarietyPlus Service at just $15.

 

In fact, Bill Jones' coin is also this same variety, which is not rare but rather popular.

[MBA101]

technically speaking VF coins should not have luster remaining. This coin does appear to have luster.

 

My example has quite a bit of apparent wear, but does have 25% remaining luster at an XF40

 

1807 O-112

 

here is a similar example, with a rather apparent amount of wear, yet nearly AU luster remaining (40%+)

 

1808 O-104

 

Strike has a whole lot to do with the grade...

[Broc Mitchell]

Thank you all for the input. I wish I could better demonstrate the hairlines the surfaces have better. If I had bought it raw, I would assume due to the prevalence of the hairlines (in the right lighting) it would details grade.

 

I figure if nothing else, I'd like this piece in an edgeview type holder so may send it in for a regrade with a note to re-holder even if it doesn't upgrade. It is currently in a VF-25 holder. I've spent an inordinate amount of time studying hi-res photos of the spectrum from VF-20 to XF-40 and see like coins all over the board. This coin matches a number of XF-40 graded (PCGS and NGC) and exceeds every other VF-25 and VF-30 I've compared it to.

 

If they bumped the grade to VF-35 that would be dandy as it seems a VF-35 grade is to the VF category as AU-58 is to the AU category, not only in scale but also in price. If the grade remained VF-25 I suppose I could live with knowing I have a really, really nice VF-25 but would question whether its just bad luck or these dang hairlines that did it.

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm tempted to crack it out and just put it in my Dansco album, but I'd really prefer any coins I have worth more than a few hundred to be in a graded state in the event I decide to sell them for whatever reason.

 

Thank you again for the pointers!

[Nutmeg Coin]

It all depends on what they want to grade it; it could go purple holder, they could say "cleaned", "obverse scratched", etc.. They could net it down 5 points. I don't think it is a "problem" coin and any respectable grading service should give it the VF25 up to 35 grade or so. What are they afraid of? A guarantee submission by a disgruntled owner, if it is in a straight holder, who sees some hairlines in the fields and thinks "cleaned" when there really is none?

[BustDime1811]

Looks 25 to me. The Overton 112 often comes weakly struck. In contrast if you find a 114 it will probably come with a strong strike...it will look like it grades higher to the untrained eye