Color vs. Grade and CAC...

[TonerGuy]

So let's say you are an enthusiast of toned coins...

 

You have been looking for a particular year and/or mint mark of a certain coin in your series. You have been looking for such a coin for 15+ years without ever seeing a nicely toned example. (nicely toned is subjective and for you to decide what it implies)

 

But then you find your coin but you feel the coin is overgraded. You believe the coin is an MS63 but its graded MS64. The coin is graded by either NGC or PCGS and it has a CAC sticker.

 

As for price, there isnt a huge mark up for color - lets say the coin is priced 1.5x the price for a untoned example in the same grade (well except you dont agree with the grade). However the difference in price from lower grade to what this coin is graded is 3x the price of a lower graded untoned example.

 

For example the untoned MS63 example is a $800 coin, the toned MS64 example is $2400, an untoned MS64 example is $1800.

 

So do you pull the trigger because its been 15+ yrs and this is the only example you found or let the coin slide and go back to looking even though the coin has been graded by one of the top grading services and has a CAC sticker ?

[coinman_23885]

I buy what I like regardless of plastic and stickers as long as it is a price I feel is fair.

[coinman_23885]

Here is one PCGS calls a MS64, it looks like a MS62 or low end MS63 to me, and I paid more than MS65 money for it. I have no regrets.

 

[KeyMan64]

Maybe see if you can get it for $2K and just buy it. If you have been

looking for 15+ years it seems to me that it is time to END your quest.

 

If you would be 100% happy with the toning and look of the coin, just buy it.

If you would not be 100% happy...like if there is a distracting mark or spot,

then do not buy it.

[coinman1794]

So let's say you are an enthusiast of toned coins...

 

You have been looking for a particular year and/or mint mark of a certain coin in your series. You have been looking for such a coin for 15+ years without ever seeing a nicely toned example. (nicely toned is subjective and for you to decide what it implies)

 

But then you find your coin but you feel the coin is overgraded. You believe the coin is an MS63 but its graded MS64. The coin is graded by either NGC or PCGS and it has a CAC sticker.

 

As for price, there isnt a huge mark up for color - lets say the coin is priced 1.5x the price for a untoned example in the same grade (well except you dont agree with the grade). However the difference in price from lower grade to what this coin is graded is 3x the price of a lower graded untoned example.

 

For example the untoned MS63 example is a $800 coin, the toned MS64 example is $2400, an untoned MS64 example is $1800.

 

So do you pull the trigger because its been 15+ yrs and this is the only example you found or let the coin slide and go back to looking even though the coin has been graded by one of the top grading services and has a CAC sticker ?

 

If you have been searching for this coin for 15+ years, and this is the only one you found that was acceptable to your tastes, then it is probably worth the added premium you might be paying, assuming you are right that the coin is over-graded.

 

Because the grading services typically do waver by a point or even two, it is not unusual to see a 63 graded 64 or vice versa. Actually, there isn't a very big difference between those two grades, on many types of coins, and some nice color will often bump a 63 in to a 64 or even a 65 holder. Maybe this coin got a color bump.

[greysoldier]

This is one I am no longer looking to improve on. Paid a premium ? Yep. Happy ? Yep++...

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

This is known as the "double bump." The coin is technically a 63, but if graded as a 63 it would sell for a 64 price. So, since the TPGs are *valuing* a coin, not grading it, they call it a 64 (remember, it is worth a 64 price). Now, a dealer comes along and sees this very attractive coin graded 64, and does realize it's already gotten a bump for the toning. So naturally, he puts a premium on it, because its very attractive. The 63 coin which should sell for a 64 price is now selling for a strong 64 almost 65 price.

 

It happens all the time, and only you can decide if you want to pay that.

 

However, if you've been searching for 15 years and this is the first one you've found that meets your standards, it may be worth it to consider purchasing.

[david3142]

On the plus side, the fact that it is graded 64 and stickered basically guarantees that you won't be losing much money (unless the whole market shifts). Much less risk in your case than paying 64+ money for a coin in a 63 holder, even if it were undergraded.

 

If you would pay $2400 for the coin in a 63 holder then do it in a heartbeat. If you wouldn't then it's a tough decision, but 15 years is a long time to wait. I haven't ever looked for a coin that long, but if I liked it and could afford it, I'd probably jump.

 

Kenny, I'm curious as to why you said you paid more than 65 money (rather than say, 66 or 67 money) for that coin. Clearly, the market price for that coin is well into 4-figures, I'm just wondering how great of a deal you got.

[TonerGuy]

Thanks everyone....

 

It definitely is a tough decision. I dont mind over paying for color but I usually like the grade to be solid. When I am paying for the "double bump" as PF points out its a little bit harder to swallow. Especially when there is such a huge range between those two bumps... approximately $1600+ in this case.

 

But then again 15 yrs is a long wait.... but I suppose $100 premium for every year isnt that bad.

 

Decisions... decisions.

[KMAG100]

Looking for one for 15+ years.....I'm buying it and if I run across a better example buy that one and sell the one I don't like. I would say PULL the TRIGGER (thumbs u

[coinman_23885]

Kenny, I'm curious as to why you said you paid more than 65 money (rather than say, 66 or 67 money) for that coin. Clearly, the market price for that coin is well into 4-figures, I'm just wondering how great of a deal you got.

 

He was fretting over paying the next grade or two up, so I choose MS65 to keep it consistent. I did pay up for this coin, and sadly, there is no free lunch in numismatics. I wish I was able to pick up coins like this at generic MS65 money.

 

Regardless, OP, quality sells. Don't use inferior coins as a price ceiling for truly phenomenal pieces. For high end, better material with great eye appeal, the price guides are worthless. As long as you don't go crazy, you should be fine. Some of the coins I have purchased at larger premiums have also rewarded me handsomely when it came to selling time (e.g. my Battle Creek Morgan).

[coinman_23885]

P.S. What does this coin look like?

[Walkerfan]

If you like the coin, in addition to the color, then I'd buy it regardless of insert number, as 15 years is a LONG time....

[david3142]

Thanks Kenny, that makes sense. And for the OP, inquiring minds want to know - what is the coin?

[Raisethis2]

Agree completely with Kmag. You've invested 15 years into a fruitless search. It's been graded and stickered (implying that it's a coin worthy of premium). Your own grading skills not withstanding, unless you flat out don't like the coin, you must buy it. If another example comes along, I'd bet you'd be able to recover your costs when you sell this one and buy the new one.

 

Alternatively, can you afford to wait another 15 years?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I think grading is a +/- 1 business anyways. If this is the best you have seen in 15 years go for it IF the coin makes YOU happy. No need to appease some grader and if you can afford the coin the money does not matter THAT much.

 

Consider the $1500 I will dump into power front discs for my Mustang shortly. I am going to buy the kit for my enjoyment not to appease someone or to pretend I can get my money plus inflation back out of it.

[123cents]

If it is what you want and you waited this long, buy it!

[TonerGuy]

I keep looking at the coin and Im just not falling in love with it...

 

Its nice. It is the nicest toned example of this year/mint mark I have found but its not a coin I can say is gorgeous. Its definitely one of a kind though. And I might not be able to replace it. But its still not speaking to me...

 

I will keep looking at it...

[TonerGuy]

Well I pulled the trigger... I got the numerical grade screwed up though... MS64 and MS65 instead of MS63/MS64

 

I just dont think this coin is a MS65. Maybe an MS64 but Ive seen MS63s with better strikes and less marks. What do I know - Im no expert grader.

 

But it is the most colorful 21-P Ive ever seen. I doubt if I will ever find one with more color. It might even be the coin I saw 15 yrs ago owned by Dale Larson but its been too long for me to remember. I just know that his coin was very colorful. I cant remember it exactly though.

 

Im just hoping it has some luster under that toning. Im not familiar enough with GC's photos though.

 

Thoughts ?

 

Obverse...

Reverse...

[david3142]

I can't see the pictures. Is this a toned Peace Dollar? High Reliefs with color are indeed quite rare. I was the underbidder on this coin from Heritage's ANA auction. I had two of their experts tell me it wasn't worth the $4K it probably would have taken to win it (although both agreed with the grade).

 

Heritage Auctions 1921 Peace MS65

[coinman_23885]

It is hard to say. The linked image files are huge, and will exaggerate marks. (Your images do not show in the thread; I opened them in another browser window so perhaps they were enlarged by the software used to host the images.). Based on the large images, I would not have guessed MS65 either, but again, I might very well feel differently if I saw it in hand. CAC is usually pretty strict with the series. You are also correct that it is difficult to find 1921 Peace Dollars with nice toning (even more so than the common dates).

 

In terms of pricing, it is truly all over the board. NGC MS65 coins without CAC stickers have sold from the ~$1,500 range all the way to $2,350. The last coin with a CAC sticker to sell at Heritage brought about $2,000 two years ago in a weak sale. The current CAC bid is around $1,800. If you are asking whether you could sell it and break even, if marketed properly, I do think you would be okay. I wouldn't consider it a burial at all. Most importantly, it comes down to whether YOU are happy with it and whether it fits the hole in your set. When the right piece that I want appears, I have no problems with paying a strong price for it.

[Afterword]

I liked the color on this coin, and I would have bid on it - if not for the strike.

 

However, I do believe the grade is accurate and you did not pay too much for the coin and you may not ever find a finer toned example.

[TonerGuy]

Sorry about the bad embed... here are the links to the photos...

 

Obverse...

Reverse...

 

It is hard to say. The linked image files are huge, and will exaggerate marks. (Your images do not show in the thread; I opened them in another browser window so perhaps they were enlarged by the software used to host the images.). Based on the large images, I would not have guessed MS65 either, but again, I might very well feel differently if I saw it in hand. CAC is usually pretty strict with the series. You are also correct that it is difficult to find 1921 Peace Dollars with nice toning (even more so than the common dates).

 

In terms of pricing, it is truly all over the board. NGC MS65 coins without CAC stickers have sold from the ~$1,500 range all the way to $2,350. The last coin with a CAC sticker to sell at Heritage brought about $2,000 two years ago in a weak sale. The current CAC bid is around $1,800. If you are asking whether you could sell it and break even, if marketed properly, I do think you would be okay. I wouldn't consider it a burial at all. Most importantly, it comes down to whether YOU are happy with it and whether it fits the hole in your set. When the right piece that I want appears, I have no problems with paying a strong price for it.

 

I doubt if this one will ever be sold but I dont think I over paid. I just think that for an MS65 the strike should be all there and the marks should be at a minimum but maybe I am asking for too much in a market grading world.

 

If it has better than good luster in hand I think I will be pleased. Im just worried that the coin will be dull and flat. I just dont know how accurate GC's photos are. I think I found a rainbow whale, so to speak.

 

I can't see the pictures. Is this a toned Peace Dollar? High Reliefs with color are indeed quite rare. I was the underbidder on this coin from Heritage's ANA auction. I had two of their experts tell me it wasn't worth the $4K it probably would have taken to win it (although both agreed with the grade).

 

Heritage Auctions 1921 Peace MS65

 

I actually think the coin you linked is an accurately graded MS65. The strike is stronger on both the obverse and reverse than my MS65 but I dont like the color or the distracting toning on the obverse near Liberty's forehead. I think $3290 was a very strong price for that coin. I hope it wasnt based on the toning though.

 

 

[Walkerfan]

I liked the color on this coin, and I would have bid on it - if not for the strike.

 

However, I do believe the grade is accurate and you did not pay too much for the coin and you may not ever find a finer toned example.

 

I agree with this. Strike is of the typical softness but the color is very rare and unique and you got it for a lot less than it's previous appearance. You did the right thing. I would have bought it, too, if I were you.

[coinman_23885]

I liked the color on this coin, and I would have bid on it - if not for the strike.

 

However, I do believe the grade is accurate and you did not pay too much for the coin and you may not ever find a finer toned example.

 

I agree with this. Strike is of the typical softness but the color is very rare and unique and you got it for a lot less than it's previous appearance. You did the right thing. I would have bought it, too, if I were you.

 

What did I miss? Where did it appear previously?

[TonerGuy]

I liked the color on this coin, and I would have bid on it - if not for the strike.

 

However, I do believe the grade is accurate and you did not pay too much for the coin and you may not ever find a finer toned example.

 

I agree with this. Strike is of the typical softness but the color is very rare and unique and you got it for a lot less than it's previous appearance. You did the right thing. I would have bought it, too, if I were you.

 

Yeah - where did it appear before and what did it sell for ?

[Walkerfan]

I liked the color on this coin, and I would have bid on it - if not for the strike.

 

However, I do believe the grade is accurate and you did not pay too much for the coin and you may not ever find a finer toned example.

 

I agree with this. Strike is of the typical softness but the color is very rare and unique and you got it for a lot less than it's previous appearance. You did the right thing. I would have bought it, too, if I were you.

 

What did I miss? Where did it appear previously?

 

My bad---I misinterpreted David3142's post. He said he almost purchased 'this' coin at HA. But after looking at the images, I have determined it is not the same piece. It is a similar piece, so he must not have meant it was the same. I think that the OP's coin is even nicer than the HA coin. The HA coin sold for 3200, so at 2300; I think that the OP did well.

[david3142]

Now that I've seen the coin (and I am also looking hard for a toned 21) let me summarize my thoughts:

 

1) I agree with your assessment of the coin. I am not a Peace Dollar expert but the coin looks more like a 64 to me due to the weak strike and the luster, which appears dull (although it may be better in person). The fact that it isn't starred probably means the luster isn't too much better though. It is however, free of any noticeable marks.

2) I think the color is excellent and about as nice as you could hope for a 21. I think you did well to purchase it. If it had better luster, I would offer you $3K right now.

3) Given that I decided not to bid above $3500 for the Heritage coin, I sure hope I don't have to wait 15 years for another one that I like as much!

 

[jpcienkus]

I'm very late to this thread, but here are my thoughts after reading all the posts:

 

1) If I were not in love with the coin and it would cost a fairly big premium to add it to my collection, I would give pause before buying/bidding on it, just like you did.

 

2) Finding a '21 Peace Dollar in high MS that appeals to me is tough enough, let alone adding the toning element to it. I like the toning on the reverse much more than the obverse. I would have added it to my collection. 15+ years of searching only adds to the reasons to get it.

 

3) After seeing the pictures, it definitely has the "flat hair" of the '21 and like you, I am a little leery of the luster. In this case, having the CAC sticker eases that feeling somewhat.

 

Can you gives us your assessment of the coin once you get it in hand? I truly hope it is everything you want in the coin!

[physics-fan3.14]

I am guessing that coin is probably quite attractive in hand. The pictures make the reverse look unattractively dark, and the whole coin appears lackluster - but I'm guessing in hand it will look much nicer. Please do post decent pictures when you get it!