off weight Kennedy half dollars Can they be certified by NGC or PCGS 0

[JIGGY]

Hello All,

I have Kennedy half dollars in the range of 10.2-10.5 grams (normal weight for these clad examples is 11.34 grams with a weight tolerance of .454 grams). I have specifically 2 years in which I have multiple examples of this vast weight difference. they also have a different sound when struck than their clad brethren of normal weight (similar to the different sound between a silver and clad coin) leading me to believe their composition is also different. They seem to be the correct thickness, diameter and are normally struck. This leads me to believe that they are wrong stock errors. (kennedy halves punched from stock intended for one of the many foreign coins being minted in US facilities in those years) Will any of the grading services acknowledge this type of wrong stock error and put in on the holder. I've had one company just put the weight with no further explanation and another company told http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/icons/default/thumbs_up.gifme they were within tolerance of mint standards even though they are 2-3x outside the weight tolerances. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

[DWLange]

Your coins can be submitted to NGC for grading and Mint Error attribution, which costs an additional $15 above the grading fee. Be certain to note in the Variety column what you believe constitutes the Mint Error. If our ME attributor agrees that the coin is not normal, then it will appropriately designated.

[CaptHenway]

How accurate is your scale? Might I suggest that you take a coin of a known weight, such as a silver eagle, and weigh that to see how close it gets?

 

 

[JIGGY]

Thank you for the suggestion on scale verification. I have two scales both repeatedly tested and weigh accurately to .1gram. I previously submitted a couple of these coins underweight by at least a gram and we'll outside published mint tolerances for weight. Ngc charged me and put a sticky note on the holder saying not underweight. This was a few years ago and I tried to get someone knowledgeable to talk to but got nowhere. I don't know if they don't take me seriously or what?

[david3142]

Are all of the coins uncirculated or close to? Why are you weighing your coins and these in particular? Do they look different?

Edited August 6, 2015 by david3142

[RWB]

Are you using good technique in taking measurements? Things like putting a paper pad on the scale, zeroing the weight before each measurement, and averaging ten measurements of the same item can help.

 

0.1 gram is not especially accurate. Repeatability is of equal importance.

 

While there will be a lot of variation of clad and minor coins, finding something significantly "off" is unusual. I presume the mint uses mass weighing with occasional piece checks. (That was the old procedure, but I don't know about post 1970.)

 

There is a mint publication called (I think) "Foreign Coins Manufactured at United States Mints." This will tell you when various foreign coins were being made and their alloy and physical characteristics.

[Conder101]

You would probably get further if you can tell them what foreign planchet you think they are on. On comment, if they show the typical clad "sandwich" on the edge they are NOT on a foreign planchet. The US and Panama are the only countries that have used that system, and we struck the Panama coins on planchets of "US" specs.

 

If you need a file of all the coins with specs that we have struck for other countries I have that in both Excel and PDF formats. If you want it just ask in the thread. I seldom check my PM's

[CaptHenway]

Conder, could you please send me that in PDF? I have Ed Fleischmann's copy of the original book, but I can never find it when I need it.

 

FWIW, Fleischmann compiled that information in loose-leaf form from U.S. Mint reports and personal observations taken while working at Collector's Clearinghouse and (later) ANACS. At one point he copied the information over fresh and sold his original notes to error dealers Steiner and Zimpher. They published it in book form without asking Ed's permission, which he then gave after the fact.

 

My copy has a few marginal notes which might be of interest should anybody ever publish a new edition of this.

 

TD

[JIGGY]

Thanks for the comments. I'm weighing with good technique. I sent two coins to SEGA and they put light planchets 10.4 grams on the label. I would like that list of foreign coins made by us mint conder101! To David 3142 , the coins are close to uncirculated. I don't see that they look different in any way, but they do sound different almost like silver sounds different than clad coinage. This leads me to think that the composition is different and the weight difference is more of a byproduct of different composition. Again 90% of these halves are 1972 or 1979 philadelphia mint. Planchets from stock rolled slightly thin wouldn't make a sound difference would it? If the mints tolerance is .454 grams and the's are twice as off weight as tolerances published wouldn't that make them mint errors?

[JIGGY]

Correction... I sent 2 coins to SEGA and they verified the weights.

[dcarr]

My guess is that they are "magician's/smuggler's" coins, hollowed out with a smaller coin inside. I've received at least one of them in change. These will have a very narrow tell-tale seam just inside the rim on one side. Another tell-tale sign is that these sometimes have an apparent rotated die reverse due to the alignment being off when the two shells are assembled.

 

[Coindude]

Who is SEGA? I know SEGS and PCGS and well tons others, but when I did a search for SEGA nothing comes up.

[CaptHenway]

My guess is that they are "magician's/smuggler's" coins, hollowed out with a smaller coin inside. I've received at least one of them in change. These will have a very narrow tell-tale seam just inside the rim on one side. Another tell-tale sign is that these sometimes have an apparent rotated die reverse due to the alignment being off when the two shells are assembled.

 

Well, he said that they ring normally.

 

Could just be rolled-thin errors, though those have always been a hard sell as they look so normal.

[Conder101]

Who is SEGA?

SEGA is a video game system.

 

PM's sent to those who asked for the foreign coins file

[AverageStacker]

Bringing this from the dead! I've been searching for info on this exact scenario for a couple months and came across this thread. I have a 1972P Kennedy Half that has a consistent weight (averaged over 10 times and other clad halves weigh normal) at 10.3g. It does not appear to have any excessive wear and the diameter and thickness appear to be within tolerance. I've found a few references to this on the 72P and the 79P but no clear answers. For now, I have just put it into a 2x2 and set it aside as an oddity but would love to know if anything further has been found. 

[Oldhoopster]

50 minutes ago, AverageStacker said:

Bringing this from the dead! I've been searching for info on this exact scenario for a couple months and came across this thread. I have a 1972P Kennedy Half that has a consistent weight (averaged over 10 times and other clad halves weigh normal) at 10.3g. It does not appear to have any excessive wear and the diameter and thickness appear to be within tolerance. I've found a few references to this on the 72P and the 79P but no clear answers. For now, I have just put it into a 2x2 and set it aside as an oddity but would love to know if anything further has been found. 

 

The only thing that would be close is a half dollar struck on nickel stock (circled in red).  Since nickels aren't clad, you should be able to easily confirm this by looking at the edge.

 

(I saved a pic of the following table from a post on another forum and don't know the original reference.)

[Woods020]

Are the rims in tact? I ask because I’ve seen a few now that were exposed to acid, and the acid deteriorated the inner copper with little impact on the clad layer. The rims will look almost like a pulley. Actually one of the first questions I had on this forum was what caused it. 

[AverageStacker]

2 hours ago, Oldhoopster said:

The only thing that would be close is a half dollar struck on nickel stock (circled in red).  Since nickels aren't clad, you should be able to easily confirm this by looking at the edge.

 

(I saved a pic of the following table from a post on another forum and don't know the original reference.)

The edge looks like any other normal clad half.

[AverageStacker]

1 hour ago, Woods020 said:

Are the rims in tact? I ask because I’ve seen a few now that were exposed to acid, and the acid deteriorated the inner copper with little impact on the clad layer. The rims will look almost like a pulley. Actually one of the first questions I had on this forum was what caused it. 

Yes, the rims are in tact. There appears to be no indication of any type of chemical exposure, hence my being perplexed...

[Conder101]

Shows a clad edge doesn't show chemical attack, under weight, almost certainly a rolled thin planchet.  And at about .5 grams out of tolerance it is far enough out of spec to be worth a premium.  How much of a premium I'm not qualified to say.  Enough to justify slabbing fees?  Probably not.