Shouldn't PCGS & NGC be required to certify their certifiers?

[Lucky One]

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

 

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

 

 

so then what you're saying is that when that group of 3 put *their* opinion on it, they *do* know? Again, I see some silly contradictions out here in the forums. By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. I have been grading proficiently for forty years and have handled millions of coins in my lifetime so I'm fairly confident that I have seen enough to get most right. I rarely send in coins for authentication that come back graded lower than I expected and often get them back graded hgher,or in straight graded slabs when I expected a details slab.

 

Would you like to sit down and do a double blind with me? When I make a statement, I don't say it unless I mean it. At this point in my collectng career, I thnk I could do it in my sleep. Please don't question my ability or my motives here or take my challenge and put your money where your opinions are.

 

As for the sarcasm, no, what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded? I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty- would you? Like you said- why should I *know* better that the 'experts'.

 

And one last question- why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word? I'll sell you a hundred rare coins (as in not modern mass produced but perfect coins) in slabs that are overgraded if you really believe they are graded properly. I could probably scan the floor of the upcoming ANA show and find at least a hundred coins that are overgraded or have problems in straight grade slabs, and they are almost always dscounted heavily (the first clue that there are problems). Maybe that shows that 'market grading' is just propaganda to cover for so many mstakes in slabs...

 

Interesting. You say "I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. " And yet the experts, themselves, don't agree with each other that high of a percent of the time.

 

You have also indicated in this thread that the experts make plenty of mistakes. So are you making the same mistakes in agreeing with them so often? Or are you right and they, wrong when you disagree with them?

 

You continue to talk about grades being "right" (when they are at least somewhat subjective and inconsistent). Yet at the same time, you question "why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word?" Which is it - are they "right" or should they not have the final word because they might not be "right"?

 

You asked "..what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded?" Someone who cares about the integrity of grading, as you claim you do.

 

Mark, it is surprising to me that a professional of your stature would word a reply like this. I offered my challenge- would you wager a year's wages to find out if I can do what I say I can? I have been doing it for a long time (my very first break-out was one of my very first slabs- it was a 1865 PCGS MS63 3 cent piece, I graded it MS65, pre-sold it before I even sent it in, and it came back MS65 as expected. Sold it to Ellsemere Numis, maybe they still have record of it, it was about 1987), and yes, almost every single time I have resubmitted a coin that I believed to be undergraded, it has come back at the grade that I opined.

 

As for the reply to the last item you quoted- it is very interesting how you conveniently discarded my qualifying statement "I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty".

 

Yes sir, I wrote that, it's up there, go look, I guess it shows that you people have selectively read what you wanted to read and ignored the important parts.

 

I feel like I'm in a tag team match but it's verbal instead of physical, but I never would have expected you to be involved like this. I honestly am ashamed of what this hobby has become, and shocked that some people who I previously had high esteem for would get involved like you have here. It is unfair to take a person's quotes so grossly out of context, but here it is in black and white for all to see. And what was that you said about integrity? Does professional integrity mean anything to you sir? I guess this will be the last straw for me and like your teammate said, time to shut it down so no one else can read it for themselves and form their own opinions. What a sad day in America...

 

And one last time- it isn't about *grading*. Please read what I wrote, I made it clear that I meant proficiency in grading series, not coins in general. Anyone can grade post 1860 coins without much difficulty, with the exceptions of a few specific coins in each series...

 

I asked serious questions and pointed out that some of your positions appear to be contradictory. I am sorry if you were bothered by my direct manner.

 

No, I would not take you up on your bet, but not because I think you would have any realistic chance of winning.

 

I'm not sure what the point was of your two point upgrade example.

 

I didn't include "gross mistake and done out of honesty" because I have no idea what you consider a "gross mistake" vs. a non-gross one and I don't believe it can be determined whether the "mistake" was "done out of honesty". Curiously, how would you go about determining that? Edited to add: My presumption would be that any "mistakes" were honest ones.

 

Yes, professional integrity means a great deal to me and I am proud of the way I have conducted my business in this industry/hobby during the past 36 years.

 

You're a orofessional and you dn't know what the meaning of gross mistake is? It means a coin that is obviously mislabeled, so obvious that it should have been caught by the clerks, what else could it mean? It is the same kind of language the grading services use in their guaranty statements.

 

As for your reason for not taking my bet- if you're so sure I'm wrong, and I offered you a venue to prove you are right, why wouldn't you take me up on it? I'll tell you what- if it is professional integrity, I won't make you take my money if I lose, I'll only take yours if I win, fair enough? I'm not a fool and don't make bets often, but I made it not to brag, but to demonstrate my willingness to put *MY* money where my mouth is. Why did I add the example of the MS63 3 cent piece? Because it goes to show that I was able to recognize an undergraded coin even 30 years ago and get the *real* grade, the one I *knew* was proper. Maybe I was wrong, they just overgraded it on the resubmission?

 

The integrity being questioned was your own Mark. Yes, you have a great rep in the business, but that doesn't change the fact that you purposely omitted the part of the quote that exonerates me from your insinuation that I lack integrity and honesty. The sceond sentence clearly shows that that insinuation couldn't be further from the truth. All the 'splainin in the world doesn't change that fact.

 

You make things (like "right" grade and "gross mistake" sound so clear and easy.

 

Is a "gross mistake" when you think the grade is off by more than 1 point? 2 points? 3 points? The coin looks lightly cleaned but still receives a grade? The coin looks moderately cleaned but still receives a grade? The coin looks heavily cleaned, but still receives a grade?

 

I have no idea where you would draw the line on "gross mistake". Again, that is why I omitted it as part of your "qualifying statement" - it was too ambiguous to make a meaningful difference. That and I had/have no clue how you would determine whether such a mistake was "done out of honesty".

 

Your willingness to bet that you would agree with the graders "at least 95 out of 100" tells me that you are extremely overconfident, unrealistic and lacking logic. How could you agree with them significantly more frequently than they agree with themselves?

 

Feel free to question my integrity all you want. Enjoy your collecting.

 

no Mark, and trying to corner a person like you have is unbecoming of the professional you claim to be imho. I gave you a definition and finished it up by saying it is the same language used in the major grading services' grading guarantees. You're the professional, haven't you read them lately sir? Again, if it is so obvious that almost anyone would notice it, it is grossly misrepresented. A mere technical disagreement is NOT what I described and I have clarified ths point numerous times, which makes me question your motives here. That and quoting me out of context, which is also very professionally unbecoming. I didn't question your integrity sir- you opened it for questioning the minute you began misquoting me. Do you do that in the course of everyday business? I would hope not, your shining reputation (and that isn't sarcasm- until today you had my full respect) would begin to tarnish if others knew how you handled yourself today. Frankly, I'm surprised the topic wasn;t taken down for all the people potentially embarassed by the revelations in it.

 

As for the rest of your reasoning as to why I'm so full of myself- my experiences are what they are, you can claim they aren't, I only made the bet to prove to you that I am not just hot air- I'm the one who *will* put my money where my mouth is, you are the one who talks a big talk here and walks when the going gets tough. And I'll make this a little clearer so that you can't weasel-word me into another corner- any *competent* grader should be able to grade close to the pros, so if you chose 100 slabs that a panel of experts agrees are properly graded, I will agree with them 95 out of 100 times in a blind grading test, fair enough? Again, if you think I'm full of it, take the bet sir. Simple enough...

[Lucky One]

Mark Feld said "That and I had/have no clue how you would determine whether such a mistake was "done out of honesty"."

 

I forgot this Mark- the quote was taken the wrong way. What I meant was that I would have returned a grossly overgraded coin out of my own honesty, not I would return an honest gross overgrade, but either way I would still return the coin because it was a gross overgrade. What is surprising is that the grading guarantes have this weasel language in them anyway- who will take thise problem coins off the market that *are* grossly improper? Who will take the 1842 AU58 with the big obvious honking scratch on it off the market? Who will take that 1859-D in the MS61 holder off the market? A dealer admitted he thought it was only a slider- should he have done it? It's owner? NGC? By the wording in the grading guarantees, if the original owner who had it slabbed doesn;t do it, it isn't likely to be accepted back, at least that is how I rwad the guaranty. Yeah, this hobby is full of professional integrity, this proves it, right?

[Afterword]

"By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*."

 

 

 

 

You would not "know" anything until you uncovered the grade. Even then you would only know the TPG's opinion of the coin's grade and whether or not it matched your own.

 

It also implies that you believe the TPGs to be very consistent, otherwise you would not be so seemingly confident in your ability to match their grade 95% of the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

 

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

 

 

so then what you're saying is that when that group of 3 put *their* opinion on it, they *do* know? Again, I see some silly contradictions out here in the forums. By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. I have been grading proficiently for forty years and have handled millions of coins in my lifetime so I'm fairly confident that I have seen enough to get most right. I rarely send in coins for authentication that come back graded lower than I expected and often get them back graded hgher,or in straight graded slabs when I expected a details slab.

 

Would you like to sit down and do a double blind with me? When I make a statement, I don't say it unless I mean it. At this point in my collectng career, I thnk I could do it in my sleep. Please don't question my ability or my motives here or take my challenge and put your money where your opinions are.

 

As for the sarcasm, no, what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded? I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty- would you? Like you said- why should I *know* better that the 'experts'.

 

And one last question- why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word? I'll sell you a hundred rare coins (as in not modern mass produced but perfect coins) in slabs that are overgraded if you really believe they are graded properly. I could probably scan the floor of the upcoming ANA show and find at least a hundred coins that are overgraded or have problems in straight grade slabs, and they are almost always dscounted heavily (the first clue that there are problems). Maybe that shows that 'market grading' is just propaganda to cover for so many mstakes in slabs...

 

Interesting. You say "I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. " And yet the experts, themselves, don't agree with each other that high of a percent of the time.

 

You have also indicated in this thread that the experts make plenty of mistakes. So are you making the same mistakes in agreeing with them so often? Or are you right and they, wrong when you disagree with them?

 

You continue to talk about grades being "right" (when they are at least somewhat subjective and inconsistent). Yet at the same time, you question "why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word?" Which is it - are they "right" or should they not have the final word because they might not be "right"?

 

You asked "..what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded?" Someone who cares about the integrity of grading, as you claim you do.

 

Mark, it is surprising to me that a professional of your stature would word a reply like this. I offered my challenge- would you wager a year's wages to find out if I can do what I say I can? I have been doing it for a long time (my very first break-out was one of my very first slabs- it was a 1865 PCGS MS63 3 cent piece, I graded it MS65, pre-sold it before I even sent it in, and it came back MS65 as expected. Sold it to Ellsemere Numis, maybe they still have record of it, it was about 1987), and yes, almost every single time I have resubmitted a coin that I believed to be undergraded, it has come back at the grade that I opined.

 

As for the reply to the last item you quoted- it is very interesting how you conveniently discarded my qualifying statement "I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty".

 

Yes sir, I wrote that, it's up there, go look, I guess it shows that you people have selectively read what you wanted to read and ignored the important parts.

 

I feel like I'm in a tag team match but it's verbal instead of physical, but I never would have expected you to be involved like this. I honestly am ashamed of what this hobby has become, and shocked that some people who I previously had high esteem for would get involved like you have here. It is unfair to take a person's quotes so grossly out of context, but here it is in black and white for all to see. And what was that you said about integrity? Does professional integrity mean anything to you sir? I guess this will be the last straw for me and like your teammate said, time to shut it down so no one else can read it for themselves and form their own opinions. What a sad day in America...

 

And one last time- it isn't about *grading*. Please read what I wrote, I made it clear that I meant proficiency in grading series, not coins in general. Anyone can grade post 1860 coins without much difficulty, with the exceptions of a few specific coins in each series...

 

I asked serious questions and pointed out that some of your positions appear to be contradictory. I am sorry if you were bothered by my direct manner.

 

No, I would not take you up on your bet, but not because I think you would have any realistic chance of winning.

 

I'm not sure what the point was of your two point upgrade example.

 

I didn't include "gross mistake and done out of honesty" because I have no idea what you consider a "gross mistake" vs. a non-gross one and I don't believe it can be determined whether the "mistake" was "done out of honesty". Curiously, how would you go about determining that? Edited to add: My presumption would be that any "mistakes" were honest ones.

 

Yes, professional integrity means a great deal to me and I am proud of the way I have conducted my business in this industry/hobby during the past 36 years.

 

You're a orofessional and you dn't know what the meaning of gross mistake is? It means a coin that is obviously mislabeled, so obvious that it should have been caught by the clerks, what else could it mean? It is the same kind of language the grading services use in their guaranty statements.

 

As for your reason for not taking my bet- if you're so sure I'm wrong, and I offered you a venue to prove you are right, why wouldn't you take me up on it? I'll tell you what- if it is professional integrity, I won't make you take my money if I lose, I'll only take yours if I win, fair enough? I'm not a fool and don't make bets often, but I made it not to brag, but to demonstrate my willingness to put *MY* money where my mouth is. Why did I add the example of the MS63 3 cent piece? Because it goes to show that I was able to recognize an undergraded coin even 30 years ago and get the *real* grade, the one I *knew* was proper. Maybe I was wrong, they just overgraded it on the resubmission?

 

The integrity being questioned was your own Mark. Yes, you have a great rep in the business, but that doesn't change the fact that you purposely omitted the part of the quote that exonerates me from your insinuation that I lack integrity and honesty. The sceond sentence clearly shows that that insinuation couldn't be further from the truth. All the 'splainin in the world doesn't change that fact.

 

BS.

You are simply enjoying insulting people.

You are running a con. Probably a psych student with a deadline.

Nobody but Cal could be as ridiculous and incapable of understanding the written word.

So, you are doing so on purpose.

Attacking Mark and insinuating he is a lightweight sleezy pro. Nobody of any integrity in the hobby would make such statements.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

 

His interpretations of posts minimizes any logic posit he wished to convey, as does his phrasing and convoluted presentation.

 

BTW, my questions remain without response.

 

 

 

So you would put me down for my convolutedness? Come on guys, cut a guy a break already. Is there anything else you'd like to criticize? So I try hard to convey a point, you sure don't make it easy either do you?

 

And please do tell me what I haven't yet answered- I asked, I'm still waiting to hear which I never answered. Please be very specific, as in quoting the questions you asked so they aren't taken out of context too, and I promise an answer to each that I haven't answered, fair enough? By the way, are you the moderator?

 

I can help you with what you have not answered: my questions.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

He doesn't get it. At all.

 

The one thing I believe he doesn't get is that some here just disagree with him on the significance of this topic in this thread.

 

 

no, I got it guys, and I agree that most don't think it is a significant problem, and I agree, if it is taken in the general 'grading' context. But I didn't ask if graders should be graded, I asked if graders should be proficient and experienced in the coins they are tasked with grading. I have had a lot of words out in my mouth and I have been grossly or unfairly misquoted by several individuals here and that is the source of the confusion imho. I'm not asking anyone to agree, I simply put it out there for discussion, but I certainly didn;t expect to be mis-quoted and misunderstood by so many. I didn't mean to insult anyone when I said that most here are probably modern coin collectors, I said it simply to point out that it is very hard to understand something if you have never handled the types of coins that *I* am referring to. That doesn't seem to be so hard to understand, so I'm flabbergasted to see so many here struggling with the concept. I have full respect for those who disagree with me, I just wish they wouldn't take my posts out of context. Thanks for the reply...

 

Somebody has to tell you: You have not been grossly or unfairly treated about anything. You had a few individuals that were very straightforward in their reply to a very confusing post by you, and a continuing accusation by you toward anybody replying, that they are rude, and grossly or unfairly misquoting you, or attacking you, or just dumb because they don't get what you are saying.

 

The fact is, you don't get what you are saying, because you can not articulate, and very time someone gives a reason for, and describes their, interpretation, you attack the person as if they are dumazzzs because they don't get what you are saying.

 

I gave you every chance to do so. I was very courteous. You replied in the most rude and crude manner anyone could imagine. You dodged the questions. You have dodged everybody's questions and observations. You simply whine and play the nobody understands me card and the I am so misunderstood card.

 

This isn't an elementary school playground. There were serious posts by very serious and knowledgeable numismatists. You chose to insult them, and you chose to coyly sidestep their questions and direct observations that more than adequately addressed the subject you so terribly presented. You continue to do so, with the post above and your follow on post directed toward me, and every post you made to anybody else.

You intimate nobody around here has ever held the coins you have, and nobody has the knowledge you have, and are ignorant about the subject you present, and are nothing but "modern" collectors, and on and on and on, and you are the numismatic savior and rescuer of all the abused no nothing collectors.

 

Do you believe your own ignorant statement that nobody has handled rare coins of the type you are referring to (what ever the heck that is-nobody knows because you have not presented any logical statement that anybody can decipher)? Do you even know where you are posting and who is reading your posts and the level of incredible knowledge they have, and the rarities they have owned, and/or handled, and or sold?

 

In my opinion you are a pompous and crude insulting person, that is in need of declaring the top of the hill belongs to you in the knowledge game.

 

You are so misunderstood. Baloney. You are just another fat mouth. I am shocked nobody stated it already.

 

And, you have yet to answer my courteous and direct questions that are addressing exactly what you are stating is the subject you have so inartfully presented. You are just another boaster that has to insult, because you believe that projects superiority of position. You are full of krap.

 

You could benefit from a Degree in Humbleness. You are the type of person that gives the hobby a bad name.

 

My follow on post made a suggestion of how to solve the goal you seek.

 

Maybe you can spend that oodles and oodles of double eagles that you mentioned to try and impress everybody, to get yourself started.

 

Yes, you appear to me to be similar to Cal, except you do have the tendency to use words with more syllables, even if used in the incorrect context of the thought trying to be conveyed by you.

 

 

another personal attack, you make my point for me. Fat mouth. Your screen name explains it all. If you have nithing constructive to add, why say anything? Are you the resident cyberbully? I've dealt with so many like you in my life it makes me sick to admit I'm a fellow human. I give the hobby a bad name by offering an idea and you call me names, but you're the good guy? Wow, I guess my parents didn;t teach me to bow to bullies...

 

by the way- I didn't need a solution, I was offering one for everyone else's consideration. I can't help it if your IQ doesn't allow comprehension of simple concepts and I won;t offer any apologies for it sir.

 

Next attack please.....

 

Yep. But, you still have not answered my questions.

You should do that to make the psych paper balanced.

[robec1347]

If he thinks this is the Wild West with name calling and not comprehending his written word, I'd love to see how he would be handled on the PCGS forums.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

If he thinks this is the Wild West with name calling and not comprehending his written word, I'd love to see how he would be handled on the PCGS forums.

 

 

 

This Thread is in serious need of SaintGuru

[PaulS.]

I think this thread has run its course.

 

 

 

-Paul