Counterfeit Coin Question
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26 posts in this topic

Today I sent in a 1914 D Lincoln cent to ICG to be put in a slab. I did so because I believe that the coin is a counterfeit and ICG will slab counterfeit coins. I had to put down a value and I couldn't imagine if it was worth anything. That got me thinking. 60 Minutes profiled Wolfgang Beltracchi, a master German art forger, recently released from prison. He made millions by painting master forgeries of famous artists and was tried and convicted. An authentication lab said that some of the owners wanted to display their paintings even after learning that they were fakes. So my question is this: Do counterfeit coins have any value?

Edited by Tyrock
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Look in the Colorado telephone directory. Have heard there's a nest of counterfeiting varmints - maybe they can tell you.

 

Old contemporary fakes are of historical interest. Modern ones are just junk.

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Look in the Colorado telephone directory. Have heard there's a nest of counterfeiting varmints - maybe they can tell you.

 

Old contemporary fakes are of historical interest. Modern ones are just junk.

 

(thumbs u

 

Chris

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Shield nickel contemporary fakes (fakes made at the same time the original coin was issued) usually fetch higher prices than the genuine article in similar condition.

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A simple answer is appreciated. No need for sarcasm.

 

You'll have to ask the counterfeiters. There isn't much appreciation for them around here.

 

Chris

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I would be more than mildly surprised if it ends up being true ICG grades counterfeit coins, such as your fake 1914-D cent.

 

 

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I sent it in because Skip Fazzari, in his column in NN, said that ICG is the only grading service that slabs counterfeit coins. I was surprised myself, but since it was handed down to me, I felt that it was a good way to preserve it and not see it end up being used to defraud anyone.

Edited by Tyrock
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I have heard of them trading hands among dealers for just a few dollars each so that they may be used as educational tools. I've even heard of dealers keeping a few on display at shows.

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If it were in a holder marked counterfit it might be interesting to display. People would want to hold it next to the real thing and see if they could tell. Might be neat to have a few paragraphs about the counterfitter and the time he spent in prison for them to read. So yeah, I'd be interested in having it.

 

I'd hate to really pay anything for a counterfit though, I think on principal.

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I would be more than mildly surprised if it ends up being true ICG grades counterfeit coins,

I don't believe they grade them but they DO slab them

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A simple answer is appreciated. No need for sarcasm.

 

No sarcasm is intended, only strong and vociferous condemnation.

 

Counterfeits are a cancer on this hobby. They represent a force that can ruin the market for old and new collectors and take joy out of the hobby. I say a pox on ANY GRADING SERVICE that gives ANY SACTION whatsoever to modern counterfeits that have been made to deceive collectors.

 

Modern counterfeits are not worth the medal they are stamped upon. They are garbage. They are fit only for melting down and reclaim the metal from which they were made.

 

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Beltracchi's only regret was that he used the wrong color paint and got caught. He expressed no remorse. Today counterfeits are affecting many areas of collectibles from comic books to jewelry. The Heritage site has some interesting information on the subject. My coin will be a conversation piece and a teaching tool.

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I felt that it was a good way to preserve it and not see it end up being used to defraud anyone.

 

Yes, the slab will prevent anyone from using it to defraud another person......just like door locks on a car will keep it from being stolen.

 

Chris

 

 

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A simple answer is appreciated. No need for sarcasm.

 

No sarcasm is intended, only strong and vociferous condemnation.

 

Counterfeits are a cancer on this hobby. They represent a force that can ruin the market for old and new collectors and take joy out of the hobby. I say a pox on ANY GRADING SERVICE that gives ANY SACTION whatsoever to modern counterfeits that have been made to deceive collectors.

 

Modern counterfeits are not worth the medal they are stamped upon. They are garbage. They are fit only for melting down and reclaim the metal from which they were made.

 

 

I agree 100%. If you are buying, slabing, or selling counterfeits unless it is for educational reasons, you are supporting the counterfeit market and your actions are a detriment to the hobby.

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I have sold many counterfeits over the years, usually on ebay when they didn't get removed before the sale. They must be very collectible because they sell very quickly in my experience, and they usually sold in the $50 to $150 range.

 

(after reading the thread I feel compelled to add that I agree- modern counterfeits made to deceive people into wasting their money on mass produced trash from china are a scourge on our hobby. All counterfeits I sold were one of a kind contempory counterfeits and disclosed as such every time I sold one. Curiously, two people I remember purchasing them were a retired cop and a sitting judge)

Edited by LuckyOne
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I felt that it was a good way to preserve it and not see it end up being used to defraud anyone.

 

Yes, the slab will prevent anyone from using it to defraud another person......just like door locks on a car will keep it from being stolen.

 

Chris

 

 

As long as the coin remains in that slab, nobody is going to be fooled by it. That was the intent of the OP. The ICG slabbed counterfeits have a bright yellow label that boldly says "NOT GENUINE" :

 

ICG Educational Slab

 

If someone breaks such a coin out of the holder with intent to defraud, then that is the person that is guilty of fraud, not the person who had the coin slabbed.

 

Vintage Morgan dollar counterfeits are actively collected by "VAM" folks. Some are worth a good premium over a similar genuine coin. Some are even collected in the ICG "NOT GENUINE" slabs.

Edited by dcarr
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A simple answer is appreciated. No need for sarcasm.

 

No sarcasm is intended, only strong and vociferous condemnation.

 

Counterfeits are a cancer on this hobby. They represent a force that can ruin the market for old and new collectors and take joy out of the hobby. I say a pox on ANY GRADING SERVICE that gives ANY SACTION whatsoever to modern counterfeits that have been made to deceive collectors.

 

Modern counterfeits are not worth the medal they are stamped upon. They are garbage. They are fit only for melting down and reclaim the metal from which they were made.

 

The relatively-modern "Omega" counterfeits of the 1907 high-relief St. Gaudens Double Eagle typically sell for a fair amount above the "melt" value.

 

Recent Chinese counterfeits are another story.

 

But I see no problem at all with encapsulating a fake if the slab label clearly indicates it as not genuine. Any such coin is less dangerous in a slab like that than in it would be in a plain flip.

Edited by dcarr
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I felt that it was a good way to preserve it and not see it end up being used to defraud anyone.

 

Yes, the slab will prevent anyone from using it to defraud another person......just like door locks on a car will keep it from being stolen.

 

Chris

 

 

As long as the coin remains in that slab, nobody is going to be fooled by it. That was the intent of the OP. The ICG slabbed counterfeits have a bright yellow label that boldly says "NOT GENUINE" :

 

ICG Educational Slab

 

If someone breaks such a coin out of the holder with intent to defraud, then that is the person that is guilty of fraud, not the person who had the coin slabbed.

 

Vintage Morgan dollar counterfeits are actively collected by "VAM" folks. Some are worth a good premium over a similar genuine coin. Some are even collected in the ICG "NOT GENUINE" slabs.

 

Why should anyone here listen to a copycat?

 

Chris

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Counterfeit coins are an undeniable part of the history of coinage, and, as such, (regardless of how old or new they are) have historical value. You cannot exclude them from an accurate accounting of coinage history.

 

In my opinion, they should not only be collected and preserved but researched and cataloged, as well.

 

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One additional benefit to keepimg the counterfits around is I believe they are good for the hobby.

 

My thinking is if a display, mine, yours, coin show, history museum, had a "can you tell the difference between these two real whatevers and this fake of the same thing it would interest newbs. There is even a chance to tell the story of how the counterfitters were caught and punished in some cases.

 

Interested newbs sometimes become collectors or maybe just hacks like me who grab the random inexpensive coin.

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A simple answer is appreciated. No need for sarcasm.

 

No sarcasm is intended, only strong and vociferous condemnation.

 

Counterfeits are a cancer on this hobby. They represent a force that can ruin the market for old and new collectors and take joy out of the hobby. I say a pox on ANY GRADING SERVICE that gives ANY SACTION whatsoever to modern counterfeits that have been made to deceive collectors.

 

Modern counterfeits are not worth the medal they are stamped upon. They are garbage. They are fit only for melting down and reclaim the metal from which they were made.

 

The relatively-modern "Omega" counterfeits of the 1907 high-relief St. Gaudens Double Eagle typically sell for a fair amount above the "melt" value.

 

Recent Chinese counterfeits are another story.

 

But I see no problem at all with encapsulating a fake if the slab label clearly indicates it as not genuine. Any such coin is less dangerous in a slab like that than in it would be in a plain flip.

 

the only problem with this is counterfeits of great rarities can be slabbed by their makers and then removed later by all of their buyers, again leaving a pox on the hobby. Modern mass produced counterfeits should not be allowed to exist unless they are obviously marked as the law prescribes. Contemporary counterfeits, on the other hand, are usually crudely made and rather obvious and rarely do you find more than a few, making them truly rare and collectible. I have run acroos sveral different dates of capped bust halves, a seated half, a barber half and even a WL half. I know there are legacy counterfeits for almost every series, but I collected mainly half dollars so that is why I ran into so many counterfeit halves. They are very interesting and great conversation pieces. The modern stuff is very difficult to detect so it is very dangerous to the hobby and 'industry', as dealers like to call it.

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