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A dealer got upset with me yesterday! "Not Suitable For Certification"

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So I found a 1798 bust dollar with terrific sharpness at a dealer's table yesterday. It was in one of those NGC cardboard 2x3s that often accompanies coins rejected for certification, although he had the printed disclaimer hidden from view. I stated that the coin looked pretty strong, and asked why it failed certification, to which he replied "NGC wouldn't put it in a holder because of damage on the reverse". He handed me the coin, at which point I saw the NGC disclaimer: "Not Suitable For Certification".

 

I pointed out that the striations on the reverse weren't damage, but rather looked like normal adjustment marks, and that they wouldn't keep the coin out of an NGC holder even if they had been called "damage". But at this point, I looked at the coin more closely with a loupe and realized it was actually an outstanding cast counterfeit, to which the counterfeiter had added fake adjustment marks!

 

Cut to the chase - I told the dealer this, to which he quickly became angry and swore up and down that the coin was indeed genuine with AU details, and that I didn't know anything about bust dollars.

 

Sheesh.

 

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that if a coin is NOT in a slab, just because it is accompanied by an NGC tag does not mean it's genuine. Assume it is confirmed as genuine ONLY if it is actually encapsulated!!

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Interesting story. As far as I knew, if it was geniune, NGC would put it in a slab and label the problems. Is there a case where they would not slab a genuine coin?

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So I found a 1798 bust dollar with terrific sharpness at a dealer's table yesterday. It was in one of those NGC cardboard 2x3s that often accompanies coins rejected for certification, although he had the printed disclaimer hidden from view. I stated that the coin looked pretty strong, and asked why it failed certification, to which he replied "NGC wouldn't put it in a holder because of damage on the reverse". He handed me the coin, at which point I saw the NGC disclaimer: "Not Suitable For Certification".

 

I pointed out that the striations on the reverse weren't damage, but rather looked like normal adjustment marks, and that they wouldn't keep the coin out of an NGC holder even if they had been called "damage". But at this point, I looked at the coin more closely with a loupe and realized it was actually an outstanding cast counterfeit, to which the counterfeiter had added fake adjustment marks!

 

Cut to the chase - I told the dealer this, to which he quickly became angry and swore up and down that the coin was indeed genuine with AU details, and that I didn't know anything about bust dollars.

 

Sheesh.

 

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that if a coin is NOT in a slab, just because it is accompanied by an NGC tag does not mean it's genuine. Assume it is confirmed as genuine ONLY if it is actually encapsulated!!

 

You know, James, we get people like that right here. If we don't agree with them, we become the enemy.

 

Chris

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Interesting story. As far as I knew, if it was geniune, NGC would put it in a slab and label the problems. Is there a case where they would not slab a genuine coin?

I don't know for a fact, but I think if a coin is too far gone, then they might not encapsulate it.

 

Quick story - a couple of years ago, we had a customer bring in an alleged 1796 quarter he had sent in. It was a horrifically damaged coin, as if had been run over by a space shuttle twelve too many times, and came back as "not suitable", and not encapsulated. Honestly, I thought it might be a Gallery Mint replica that had been manipulated.

 

However, we sent it in again, and it did come back as "genuine / damaged". So sometimes, they may need a second set of eyes with more experience to look at a coin to determine that it is, indeed, genuine.

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Some dealers get very testy when you disagree with them. Sometimes it's better just to pass and leave it at that.

 

Many years ago a dealer offered me a 1795 half dime. At first I thought that it had some adjustment marks on the obverse, but when I looked more closely I saw that the "adjustment marks" were there to hide the fact that three initials had been carved into Ms. Liberty's neck.

 

I passed and the dealer asked me why because he had quoted a good price if the coin had not had the problem.

 

I told him about the initials, and he said, "I was going to tell you about that."

 

YEA, RIGHT ... :insane:

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So I found a 1798 bust dollar with terrific sharpness at a dealer's table yesterday. It was in one of those NGC cardboard 2x3s that often accompanies coins rejected for certification, although he had the printed disclaimer hidden from view. I stated that the coin looked pretty strong, and asked why it failed certification, to which he replied "NGC wouldn't put it in a holder because of damage on the reverse". He handed me the coin, at which point I saw the NGC disclaimer: "Not Suitable For Certification".

. . .

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that if a coin is NOT in a slab, just because it is accompanied by an NGC tag does not mean it's genuine. Assume it is confirmed as genuine ONLY if it is actually encapsulated!!

 

I'm guessing it was in something like this?

NGCbodybag.jpg

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So I found a 1798 bust dollar with terrific sharpness at a dealer's table yesterday. It was in one of those NGC cardboard 2x3s that often accompanies coins rejected for certification, although he had the printed disclaimer hidden from view. I stated that the coin looked pretty strong, and asked why it failed certification, to which he replied "NGC wouldn't put it in a holder because of damage on the reverse". He handed me the coin, at which point I saw the NGC disclaimer: "Not Suitable For Certification".

 

I pointed out that the striations on the reverse weren't damage, but rather looked like normal adjustment marks, and that they wouldn't keep the coin out of an NGC holder even if they had been called "damage". But at this point, I looked at the coin more closely with a loupe and realized it was actually an outstanding cast counterfeit, to which the counterfeiter had added fake adjustment marks!

 

Cut to the chase - I told the dealer this, to which he quickly became angry and swore up and down that the coin was indeed genuine with AU details, and that I didn't know anything about bust dollars.

 

Sheesh.

 

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that if a coin is NOT in a slab, just because it is accompanied by an NGC tag does not mean it's genuine. Assume it is confirmed as genuine ONLY if it is actually encapsulated!!

 

You know, James, we get people like that right here. If we don't agree with them, we become the enemy.

 

Chris

thats to bad its gotta work out that way but it is what it is
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You know, James, we get people like that right here. If we don't agree with them, we become the enemy.

That seems par for the course with anything...'you're either with me, or against me.' It's a defense mechanism related to Spiltting: Wiki

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Interesting story. As far as I knew, if it was geniune, NGC would put it in a slab and label the problems. Is there a case where they would not slab a genuine coin?

 

I was wondering this myself.

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Interesting story. As far as I knew, if it was geniune, NGC would put it in a slab and label the problems. Is there a case where they would not slab a genuine coin?

 

I was wondering this myself.

 

If the coin was genuine NGC would have put it in a holder IF it was sent in AFTER that policy took effect. In the old days you got a body bag with "flunk label" in the opposite pocket.

 

I think the dealer was fibbing when he said NGC would not put the coin in a slab because of the adjustment marks. That is preposterous. Adjustment marks were part of the early minting process. NGC didn't put it in a slab because it is not genuine.

 

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Some dealers get very testy when you disagree with them.

 

It is usually when they are trying to pull a fast one. This gets me equally perturbed and such dealers need to be 'educated' along with unknowledgeable, unsuspecting, buyers around them. They are a danger IMO. You did the RIGHT thing, James.

 

 

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Sometimes it's not possible to authenticate a coin with extreme damage.

 

That is true, but if James could tell that the piece was a counterfeit, it's hard to believe that NGC was unable to see that.

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I'm guessing it was in something like this?

NGCbodybag.jpg

(thumbs u

 

Some dealers get very testy when you disagree with them.

 

It is usually when they are trying to pull a fast one. This gets me equally perturbed and such dealers need to be 'educated' along with unknowledgeable, unsuspecting, buyers around them. They are a danger IMO. You did the RIGHT thing, James.

Unfortunately, it's possible that the dealer actually does think his coin is genuine, and my only goal was to try and prevent a collector down the line from getting hurt buying a fake.

 

Sometimes it's not possible to authenticate a coin with extreme damage.

True, or authentication can be made far more difficult (see my 1796 quarter story above), but in this case, the "coin" was not damaged at all, aside from the false adjustment marks that had been applied to the reverse. It was rather a case where looking at the coin under 12x revealed the porous surfaces and "bubbles" that are classic signs of a cast counterfeit.

 

 

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As far as I knew, if it was geniune, NGC would put it in a slab and label the problems. Is there a case where they would not slab a genuine coin?

From the creation of the TPG's until just a few years ago genuine coins with problems would not be put in holders. And during that whole time the TPG's swore up and down that they would NEVER put problem coins in their holders.

 

Then PCGS buckeled and started putting them in holders but only labed as GENUINE. They said they would never put grades on these problem coin holders.

 

Then they started putting Details grades on them and listing the problem.

 

Will the next step will be net grades and don't mention the problem?

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Will the next step will be net grades and don't mention the problem?

 

That has already been done from time to time, and as we saw with a Bust Dime a year or so ago such coins have even gotten CAC approval.

 

The problem with deep sixing every problem coin in a body bag is that some early coins simply don't exist or virtually don't exist in the straight grades. Yet given their historical importance and value, they often need to be certified as genuine. For that reason I don't see a problem if the pieces are properly noted for what they are.

 

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The TPGs are doing the best thing possible now: all coins that are genuine get slabbed and given a cert number.

 

You could even place MORE info about the coin in a database (so it doesn't clog up the label) online at the TPG where you can search the cert number. To me that's the best route.

 

jom

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Interesting story. As far as I knew, if it was geniune, NGC would put it in a slab and label the problems. Is there a case where they would not slab a genuine coin?

 

I was wondering this myself.

 

One can request, on the invoice, whether or not they want problem coins to be slabbed. This sounds like something else, entirely. Not suitable means it is either fake or it has active chemical problems that preclude it from encapsulation.

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Interesting story. As far as I knew, if it was geniune, NGC would put it in a slab and label the problems. Is there a case where they would not slab a genuine coin?

 

Yes. PVC. Happened to me two years ago.

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