"Legend" report

[Nutmeg Coin]

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=market_report

 

I really found this unbearably condescending:

 

"You can NOT compare a NON CAC coin to one that is CAC. You also can NOT compare the value of a PCGS coin to NGC (more then (sic) proven by what prices realized at the FUN Auction). And you must understand there really are and can be huge price variations in the same grade. Every coin is different! Eye appeal plays a HUGE role in determing a coins value. Besides, in this day and age, if your offerd a non cac coin you have to wonder why? There is no question that CAC coins bring more and no dealer worth their salt would leave money on the table!...Also, start thinking about representation. Big bomb shell-the Pogue coins are now NOT CAC'd. Even though most of the coins are crazy sick quality, you really do not want to be the person to buy the one thats 'not all there" or pay a record price for a coin with a light cleaning or an issue.

 

"If you would like representation in either sale, please contact us as soon as possible. We can only work with a limited group. These sales are not far away!"

[braddick]

Other than her style, is there any content you disagree with?

[jom]

I don't see any condescension there. Although, she does imply that ALL CAC coins are better which I don't hold to be true. However, I don't understand this quote:

 

Big bomb shell-the Pogue coins are now NOT CAC'd.

 

Are "now" not CAC'd? What does that mean? Does that mean they WERE CAC'd then someone peeled off the label? I don't follow....

 

jom

 

 

[Raisethis2]

I read that as a Salesmans bluster. The Author taking the position that we buy the best and need to pay higher prices to get it is what every Dealer on the block maintains. Conveniently they fail to mention the rips and cherrypicks included in inventory.

 

I do dispute the notion that PCGS coins "should" carry a premium over NGC graded coins. The Author seems to have been convinced that NGC Graders think everything has superior eye appeal where PCGS Graders are more discerning.

 

That may be true at the quality level at the highest end of the coin market but, I'd like the Author to explain why I have more NGC coins with CAC stickers than PCGS?

 

This just reinforces for me the idea that buying NGC encapsulated coins at discounted prices is the smart way to buy,............well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless it's a rip. Then anything goes.

[Nutmeg Coin]

That all PCGS coins are better than all others; that CAC coins are superior to non-CAC. Some of this may be true in some areas of the market but I just find her argument to be self-serving, unrigorous from any scientific standard or method, and biased. It would be something if she came out with an exhaustive report or cited one to support her newsletter, with hundreds of statistically relevant results based not on the plastic but on the actual coin, which she does not do.

[coinman_23885]

I don't see any condescension there. Although, she does imply that ALL CAC coins are better which I don't hold to be true. However, I don't understand this quote:

 

Big bomb shell-the Pogue coins are now NOT CAC'd.

 

Are "now" not CAC'd? What does that mean? Does that mean they WERE CAC'd then someone peeled off the label? I don't follow....

 

jom

 

 

I think Laura is implying that the coins were in lower graded coins and were upgraded, perhaps too generously. This is just my speculation and opinion, of course.

[coinman_23885]

That all PCGS coins are better than all others; that CAC coins are superior to non-CAC. Some of this may be true in some areas of the market but I just find her argument to be self-serving, unrigorous from any scientific standard or method, and biased.

 

I'm not sure why you are taking what she said offensively. She is merely stating that plastic and stickers matter, which from a marketing perspective is absolutely true. Whether it should matter or not is not the point; it matters that it does have a large effect on the prices realized and this holds true across most series and almost all issues except, perhaps, the most inexpensive common date coins where the premium is likely small if observed at all. On another note, saying that you cannot compare the prices is not the same as saying that one coin is superior in quality...

[MJ]

That all PCGS coins are better than all others; that CAC coins are superior to non-CAC. Some of this may be true in some areas of the market but I just find her argument to be self-serving, unrigorous from any scientific standard or method, and biased.

 

I'm not sure why you are taking what she said offensively. She is merely stating that plastic and stickers matter, which from a marketing perspective is absolutely true. Whether it should matter or not is not the point; it matters that it does have a large effect on the prices realized and this holds true across most series and almost all issues except, perhaps, the most expensive common date coins where the premium is likely small if observed at all. On another note, saying that you cannot compare the prices is not the same as saying that one coin is superior in quality...

 

Yep. She also said that every coin is different which indeed it is. In general PCGS CAC coins sell for more then non CAC PCGS coins. In general PCGS coins sell for more then NGC coins. I'm not sure who could actually debate this with a straight face. Should they? Maybe, dunno, yes, no......I know where I stand. Don't honestly care what others think or stand. I do know that if you buy coins and ever intend on selling them do your due diligence. If you intend on literally being buried with your coins then not of this will ring true anyways.

 

 

Mark

[brg5658]

Blowhard, plain and simple.

 

I know, I sound like a broken record. Sadly, so does Sperber. Her supposed wisdom is anything but. Nothing she writes surprises me anymore. I am an admitted "nobody" in the numismatic world, but Ms. Sperber is actually dangerous in much of her bizarre dogma and rhetoric.

[wdrob]

What struck me was how much FUN they are having collecting their coins. I want to have just as much fun as they do gosh darnit!

 

Are these coins WOW's or what?

 

All we can say is WOW!

 

 

 

Now that is fun!

 

 

 

[RWB]

Some feel that the only enjoyment is on their terms....sad.

[BillJones]

Only the PCGS - CAC combination is worthy of your purchase consideration. This is at the core of their marketing strategy and business plan. You can drink the Kool Aid and believe them or think for your self.

[mommam17]

If I bought only PCGS coins and no NGC, it would be a mistake for me. I always treated them equal. Never bothered to cross any thing over.

[BillJones]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions. Not all of the coins in those sales are PCGS-CAC. So why would a bidder, who believes their rhetoric, bid on any plain old non CAC, PCGS coin or any NGC coin regardless of its CAC status? How can Regency Auctions dirty their hands by handling such "dreck?"

[coinman_23885]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions....

 

In fairness to her firm, Legend has increased the number of NGC-CAC coins that it has offered over the last year or so. In the past, you would see none, but they are becoming a more frequent occurrence. And her site language appears to have adopted an all CAC approach and toned down on the all PCGS approach. I don't agree with either, but it is a notable change from the past.

[KeyMan64]

I don't see any condescension there. Although, she does imply that ALL CAC coins are better which I don't hold to be true. However, I don't understand this quote:

 

Big bomb shell-the Pogue coins are now NOT CAC'd.

 

Are "now" not CAC'd? What does that mean? Does that mean they WERE CAC'd then someone peeled off the label? I don't follow....

 

jom

 

JOM, all of the coins took a trip to PCGS for regrade/reconsideration or something like that, late last year. The coins were put in holders with Gold Labels. The coins visited CAC as I understand it and many had stickers. People saw these at WINTER FUN. Fast forward a bit, people did not like the Gold Labels. The coins then went back to PCGS and were re-holdered with attractive Silver Labels..... The coins have NOT been back to CAC. Not sure if they will be but they have not at this time.

 

This is my understanding from following threads ATS and also from my conversation with Lawrence Stack.

 

Some are certainly CAC worthy and some might not be. The folks that viewed the coins at Winter FUN might have a little more knowledge, at least when it comes to the pieces they were interested in.

[Raisethis2]

I didn't even know who the author of that report was until I read this again this afternoon. I know many have an axe to grind with Ms Sperber, I'm not one of them.

 

I stand by my earlier opinion that while true there are some who swear by PCGS and wouldn't consider any alternative, that's not very logical. Especially when she also recognizes that each coin is different.

 

I'm sure Dealers across America love their PCGS only clients because there has to be a markup on every coin sold........."just because".

 

To me that's like saying "the only one who can fix my car is the Dealer's Mechanic". That's just not real world and prohibitively expensive.

[Kurtdog]

In general PCGS CAC coins sell for more then non CAC PCGS coins. In general PCGS coins sell for more then NGC coins. I'm not sure who could actually debate this with a straight face. Should they? Maybe, dunno, yes, no......I know where I stand. Don't honestly care what others think or stand.

You're talking about brands selling for more, not coins selling for more, and to a market of insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are conditioned by brand-marketing.

[MJ]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions. Not all of the coins in those sales are PCGS-CAC. So why would a bidder, who believes their rhetoric, bid on any plain old non CAC, PCGS coin or any NGC coin regardless of its CAC status? How can Regency Auctions dirty their hands by handling such "dreck?"

 

They also sell non cac coins Bill but at a discount. They are listed form time to time in a special section.These are coins they expected to sticker but didn't. It happens. In their auctions bid accordingly. Problem solved.

 

Mark

[Hard Times]

One of the interesting things about their PCGS-CAC coins or nothing advice, is how they run their auctions....

 

In fairness to her firm, Legend has increased the number of NGC-CAC coins that it has offered over the last year or so. In the past, you would see none, but they are becoming a more frequent occurrence. And her site language appears to have adopted an all CAC approach and toned down on the all PCGS approach. I don't agree with either, but it is a notable change from the past.

 

This may be true, but then she blogs for buying only the PCGS-CAC combination if I read her quote in the first post correctly. That seems inconsistent. I still believe in the mantra of buying the coin for the coin.

 

Best, HT

[MJ]

In general PCGS CAC coins sell for more then non CAC PCGS coins. In general PCGS coins sell for more then NGC coins. I'm not sure who could actually debate this with a straight face. Should they? Maybe, dunno, yes, no......I know where I stand. Don't honestly care what others think or stand.

You're talking about brands selling for more, not coins selling for more, and to a market of insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are conditioned by brand-marketing.

 

A little maybe. I have plenty of great coins in NGC slabs. All I know if the market stays the way it is now I will attempt to cross them to PCGS and then to CAC so I can realize maximum dollars. If I attempt to sell the very same coins in NGC slabs as they are I will get less. Much less. I have never submitted to NGC, PCGS or CAC. With that in mind, what would you do?

 

Bill Jones mentioned that a lot of the GREAT coins that are in NGC plastic get crossed over to PCGS. I agree with him. It doesn't happen the other way around.

 

Mark

[Hard Times]

In general PCGS CAC coins sell for more then non CAC PCGS coins. In general PCGS coins sell for more then NGC coins. I'm not sure who could actually debate this with a straight face. Should they? Maybe, dunno, yes, no......I know where I stand. Don't honestly care what others think or stand.

You're talking about brands selling for more, not coins selling for more, and to a market of insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are conditioned by brand-marketing.

 

A little maybe. I have plenty of great coins in NGC slabs. All I know if the market stays the way it is now I will attempt to cross them to PCGS and then to CAC so I can realize maximum dollars. If I attempt to sell the very same coins in NGC slabs as they are I will get less. Much less. I have never submitted to NGC, PCGS or CAC. With that in mind, what would you do?

 

Bill Jones mentioned that a lot of the GREAT coins that are in NGC plastic get crossed over to PCGS. I agree with him. It doesn't happen the other way around.

 

Mark

 

Maybe PCGS coins go for more in online auctions partly because of the sight unseen nature of many of the bids and the perception that PCGS holdered coins are worth more, but my personal experience in selling coins direct to buyers is that the holder does not matter. CAC stickers appear to matter for strong prices but if you have excellent coins that are worthy of the grade, that does not matter as much as one would think. HST, I think my images and pricing are good. ATS, where I am moving stuff on the BST, some of the PCGS coins listed are the longest holdouts, the NGC coins sold much quicker and at strong prices because of their quality and good images.

 

Best, HT

[Nutmeg Coin]

I rarely buy or sell coins worth over $2000, so those who understand and trade in that market probably are qualified on valuation differentials. I used to subscribe to the Rosen Numismatic advisory which is very good on the market in the higher tiers interviewing the whales in this business. Those leaders as I recall did not favor one particular service. NGC has addressed some of the weaker results that their certfied material has brought: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

[MJ]

 

In general PCGS CAC coins sell for more then non CAC PCGS coins. In general PCGS coins sell for more then NGC coins. I'm not sure who could actually debate this with a straight face. Should they? Maybe, dunno, yes, no......I know where I stand. Don't honestly care what others think or stand.

You're talking about brands selling for more, not coins selling for more, and to a market of insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are conditioned by brand-marketing.

 

A little maybe. I have plenty of great coins in NGC slabs. All I know if the market stays the way it is now I will attempt to cross them to PCGS and then to CAC so I can realize maximum dollars. If I attempt to sell the very same coins in NGC slabs as they are I will get less. Much less. I have never submitted to NGC, PCGS or CAC. With that in mind, what would you do?

 

Bill Jones mentioned that a lot of the GREAT coins that are in NGC plastic get crossed over to PCGS. I agree with him. It doesn't happen the other way around.

 

Mark

 

Maybe PCGS coins go for more in online auctions partly because of the sight unseen nature of many of the bids and the perception that PCGS holdered coins are worth more, but my personal experience in selling coins direct to buyers is that the holder does not matter. CAC stickers appear to matter for strong prices but if you have excellent coins that are worthy of the grade, that does not matter as much as one would think. HST, I think my images and pricing are good. ATS, where I am moving stuff on the BST, some of the PCGS coins listed are the longest holdouts, the NGC coins sold much quicker and at strong prices because of their quality and good images.

 

Best, HT

 

Small sampling HT but I'm glad for you.

 

Many of the best dealers I know have the exact opposite experience as you. They also have excellent pictures.

 

Mark

[Raisethis2]

MJ,

 

I understand your desire to maximize worth at the time you elect to liquidate your coin holdings but another angle to this is the marketing. Crossing from NGC to PCGS isn't a given.

I don't know how much they charge, but when I see lists on their submission pages with the dreaded DNC I'm pretty sure that looking at the coins before making that determination isn't free.

 

Also, I've read about PCGS promotions regarding crossovers. Maybe it's a one way street because NGC doesn't do these promotions. If they have, I've never seen it discussed.

 

Again however, (for example) if a coin is worth $200 in NGC and $300 in PCGS encapsulation the choice is clear provided they don't get too big a check for turning many coins away.

[MJ]

MJ,

 

I understand your desire to maximize worth at the time you elect to liquidate your coin holdings but another angle to this is the marketing. Crossing from NGC to PCGS isn't a given.

I don't know how much they charge, but when I see lists on their submission pages with the dreaded DNC I'm pretty sure that looking at the coins before making that determination isn't free.

 

Also, I've read about PCGS promotions regarding crossovers. Maybe it's a one way street because NGC doesn't do these promotions. If they have, I've never seen it discussed.

 

Again however, (for example) if a coin is worth $200 in NGC and $300 in PCGS encapsulation the choice is clear provided they don't get too big a check for turning many coins away.

 

No doubt about it not being a given.

 

For coins that are priced in the thousands I will first try to cross. The ones that don't I will crack. Maybe not all the NGC star coins with wild color perhaps. Those may go to NGC for upgrade and then CAC.................Mark

[jpcienkus]

Question of the day:

 

If the only TPG to consider is PCGS, than why didn't 100% of all the Pogue collection receive CAC approval?

 

If the coins were "C" for the grade, thus not worthy of the green bean, why didn't PCGS downgrade them 1 point so they would get the approval?

[Hard Times]

In general PCGS CAC coins sell for more then non CAC PCGS coins. In general PCGS coins sell for more then NGC coins. I'm not sure who could actually debate this with a straight face. Should they? Maybe, dunno, yes, no......I know where I stand. Don't honestly care what others think or stand.

You're talking about brands selling for more, not coins selling for more, and to a market of insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are conditioned by brand-marketing.

 

A little maybe. I have plenty of great coins in NGC slabs. All I know if the market stays the way it is now I will attempt to cross them to PCGS and then to CAC so I can realize maximum dollars. If I attempt to sell the very same coins in NGC slabs as they are I will get less. Much less. I have never submitted to NGC, PCGS or CAC. With that in mind, what would you do?

 

Bill Jones mentioned that a lot of the GREAT coins that are in NGC plastic get crossed over to PCGS. I agree with him. It doesn't happen the other way around.

 

Mark

 

 

Maybe PCGS coins go for more in online auctions partly because of the sight unseen nature of many of the bids and the perception that PCGS holdered coins are worth more, but my personal experience in selling coins direct to buyers is that the holder does not matter. CAC stickers appear to matter for strong prices but if you have excellent coins that are worthy of the grade, that does not matter as much as one would think. HST, I think my images and pricing are good. ATS, where I am moving stuff on the BST, some of the PCGS coins listed are the longest holdouts, the NGC coins sold much quicker and at strong prices because of their quality and good images.

 

Best, HT

 

Small sampling HT but I'm glad for you.

 

Many of the best dealers I know have the exact opposite experience as you. They also have excellent pictures.

 

Mark

 

It is true, it is a small sampling. But I think the key is excellent images. HST, I am not in a hurry to sell and can wait, most dealers can't and need every marketing strategy to flip. I have never crossed a coin. I broke a few out of NGC holders recently to test PCGS and CAC - they were NGC holdered that did not pass CAC. Some went up at PCGS, some went down, some stayed the same, some passed at CAC the second time in the PCGS holders. I am thinking about crossing one because I think it might be undergraded in the NGC holder - all but Bill at at FUN thought so, but in truth, it is really to see if it can pass CAC in the PCGS holder if at the same grade or higher if crossed. Coin don't lie, it is still the same quality no matter what surrounds it so to some extent value won't change to those who can grade.

 

Best, HT

 

[Hard Times]

In general PCGS CAC coins sell for more then non CAC PCGS coins. In general PCGS coins sell for more then NGC coins. I'm not sure who could actually debate this with a straight face. Should they? Maybe, dunno, yes, no......I know where I stand. Don't honestly care what others think or stand.

You're talking about brands selling for more, not coins selling for more, and to a market of insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are conditioned by brand-marketing.

 

A little maybe. I have plenty of great coins in NGC slabs. All I know if the market stays the way it is now I will attempt to cross them to PCGS and then to CAC so I can realize maximum dollars. If I attempt to sell the very same coins in NGC slabs as they are I will get less. Much less. I have never submitted to NGC, PCGS or CAC. With that in mind, what would you do?

 

Bill Jones mentioned that a lot of the GREAT coins that are in NGC plastic get crossed over to PCGS. I agree with him. It doesn't happen the other way around.

 

Mark

 

Actually, it does, see the post in another thread here:

 

The Skidaway Island collection had many PCGS graded busties that were crossed to NGC. The thing is that the majority of CBH collectors prefer these coins in PCGS holders because there is a thought that PCGS is better at grading them than NGC. Something I truly do not understand.

 

The results of my little study (only coins that i could identify):

 

14 crossed at grade (including 5 AU55's and 5 AU58's)

4 got downgraded

4 got upgraded

 

Looks like they grade pretty close to the same to me.

 

Seems to me to be another myth propagated that no great coins cross to NGC from PCGS. Maybe more cross from NGC to PCGS because of the marketing, but clearly crossovers go both ways.

 

Best, HT

[Kurtdog]

In general PCGS CAC coins sell for more then non CAC PCGS coins. In general PCGS coins sell for more then NGC coins. I'm not sure who could actually debate this with a straight face. Should they? Maybe, dunno, yes, no......I know where I stand. Don't honestly care what others think or stand.

You're talking about brands selling for more, not coins selling for more, and to a market of insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are conditioned by brand-marketing.

A little maybe. I have plenty of great coins in NGC slabs. All I know if the market stays the way it is now I will attempt to cross them to PCGS and then to CAC so I can realize maximum dollars. If I attempt to sell the very same coins in NGC slabs as they are I will get less. Much less. I have never submitted to NGC, PCGS or CAC. With that in mind, what would you do?

I'd do the same thing. You got the hot market there, go for it. Why do you think all the big dealers are there? When the gravy's flowing you want to be right there with your kisser under the faucet. But let's not deceive ourselves, it's just marketing. That's what they do there. That's all that plastic is about.