Poor service

[carnyman2]

What's happened to NGC's graders? They must either be incompetent or lost their family jewels.

 

I sent in 6 Trade Dollars for certification and grading. I knew they were not the highest grade (XF to MS60), but wanted authentication that they were real. It costs about $50 each to do this.

 

When they came back, NGC said 4 of them were "AUTHENTICITY UNVERFIABLE" which to me means "DUH; I DON"T KNOW" What do they think I paid them to do??? I could have had my 9 year old grand-nephew tell me that and saved $200. Four big coin dealers all said they were real.

 

I guess I'll have to send them to the other company for grading. Makes me wish I hadn't wasted my money joining NGC.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Why not contact NGC directly and request an explanation and/or a refund?

[Raisethis2]

I'm no expert on Trade Dollars but since there are so many counterfeits out there I believe what the grading services look for are certain verifiable markers. When these aren't present, they won't authenticate the coin. Keep in mind, they are called NGC for a reason. Numismatic GUARANTEE Corporation. They aren't saying they are fakes, they are saying they cannot guarantee they are genuine. I'd be pretty certain the same result would occur across the street.

 

Sorry for the mixed result. It's part of the hobby.

 

Welcome to the forums.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Where did you get them? There are plenty of fakes floating around. If you could post images of them even high resolution scanner images would give enough detail to make an assessment that would help.

[BillJones]

I agree with you. I think that if a grading service is unable to render an opinion as to whether or not a coin is genuine, that they should refund your grading and authentication fees or at least part of them.

 

I could see a potential for abuse here if the same submitter sent in the same coins time and time again in the hope of having "lighting strike" with a positive outcome. Still, even in the old days, when you got a body bag because a coin could not be graded, the flip insert used to have a notation on it that stated the coin was genuine, if it was.

 

[MarkFeld]

Where did you get them? There are plenty of fakes floating around. If you could post images of them even high resolution scanner images would give enough detail to make an assessment that would help.

 

If NGC couldn't make a determination with the coins in hand, I sure wouldn't count on a more certain assessment by forum members, based upon images.

[Conder101]

Typically the TPG's will not come right out and say a coin is a fake unless it is blatantly obvious. Instead they typically say something like questionable authenticity or authenticity questionable. (In this case authenticity unverifiable.) It is still a fake in their opinion, they just don't put it in those words. They also have a possible response of No Opinion, which is not used very often, but when they do use it they also refund the fees. You paid for an opinion as to the authenticity, and you got one that said they could not verify it as being authentic. You got what you paid for.

[messydesk]

"Authenticity unverifiable" is a euphemism for counterfeit. Poor service would be if they didn't even tell you that.

[cpm9ball]

Look at the bright side, carnyman. If you had posted this same thread on another well-known site, you probably would have been banned.

 

Chris

[mommam17]

Sorry for the expensive disappointing experience. I don't own a Trade Dollar and know little about them. I do know that many counterfeits come from China. If I were to add one to my collection, it would be in a PCGS or NGC holder.

[RWB]

Authentication is what the OP paid for and the message seems very clear that some of his "coins" were not coins but fakes.

 

As for refunding fees.....not for authentication, but definitely any grading charges assessed on a fake should be refunded by any of the three major companies.

[MarkFeld]

Authentication is what the OP paid for and the message seems very clear that some of his "coins" were not coins but fakes.

 

As for refunding fees.....not for authentication, but definitely any grading charges assessed on a fake should be refunded by any of the three major companies.

 

The grading and authentication fees are one and the same .Personally, I feel that a grading company should refund the fee if it's unable or unwilling to declare that a coin is genuine or a counterfeit.

[RWB]

I agree that the companies should be clearer on authentication terms.

[KMAG100]

You paid for an opinion as to the authenticity, and you got one that said they could not verify it as being authentic. You got what you paid for.

 

I agree with this. While it is not the opinion one would hope for, I can not see how one could claim no opinion was rendered. Simply not liking an opinion is not cause for refund or claim that the TPG did not full fill their fee obligation.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[orifdoc]

When a doctor or lawyer can't help you, they still send you a bill.

[coinman_23885]

The grading and authentication fees are one and the same .Personally, I feel that a grading company should refund the fee if it's unable or unwilling to declare that a coin is genuine or a counterfeit.

 

+1

[leeg]

Typically the TPG's will not come right out and say a coin is a fake unless it is blatantly obvious. Instead they typically say something like questionable authenticity or authenticity questionable. (In this case authenticity unverifiable.) It is still a fake in their opinion, they just don't put it in those words. They also have a possible response of No Opinion, which is not used very often, but when they do use it they also refund the fees. You paid for an opinion as to the authenticity, and you got one that said they could not verify it as being authentic. You got what you paid for.

This ↑

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

When a doctor or lawyer can't help you, they still send you a bill.

 

It depends on whether services are actually rendered or not. When the anesthesiologist refused to sedate my mom on the date of a medical procedure, she was not charged and rightfully so.

[No+4Me]

I still think it would be useful for you to post good images of the coins here, if you can. Some of us study trade dollars pretty closely and have seen a number of high quality fakes. Imaging the edge reeding using this method how to photograph edge reeding can also be helpful.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I am not certain this is the complete information on this story.

 

I am sure time will tell.

 

However, assuming for the moment it is, the quandary of rendering a non-opinion opinion is interesting.

 

The opinion "Authenticity Unverifiable" is not an acceptable position for a TPG to declare, if a refund of any payment made by the Submitter is not forthcoming. Not a partial refund; the entire amount.

 

It does not matter if Trade Dollars are notorious for counterfeiting and some are hard to confirm or deny. It does not matter that a Doctor charges without opinion (a humorous comparison, although not a comparative situation). It does not matter that non-verification for or against is, well, an opinion to some.

 

Consider how many persons at a TPG viewed the coin. Consider all the available methods/tools/comparisons the TPG has and can exercise. Consider that the primary business model goal of a TPG is to render an opinion...good or bad. If the TPG can't, then send the money back.

 

There are no excuses for not refunding the entire amount.

 

 

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Authentication is what the OP paid for and the message seems very clear that some of his "coins" were not coins but fakes.

 

As for refunding fees.....not for authentication, but definitely any grading charges assessed on a fake should be refunded by any of the three major companies.

 

No, he didn't., and and no, there is no clear message, and no, there is no justification for retaining any of the money.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

You paid for an opinion as to the authenticity, and you got one that said they could not verify it as being authentic. You got what you paid for.

 

I agree with this. While it is not the opinion one would hope for, I can not see how one could claim no opinion was rendered. Simply not liking an opinion is not cause for refund or claim that the TPG did not full fill their fee obligation.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

How can anyone possibly ascertain the TPG non-opinion is an opinion?

 

That is a logic bust.

 

Yes, you do (or should) get what you pay for. Unfortunately, not this time.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Typically the TPG's will not come right out and say a coin is a fake unless it is blatantly obvious. Instead they typically say something like questionable authenticity or authenticity questionable. (In this case authenticity unverifiable.) It is still a fake in their opinion, they just don't put it in those words. They also have a possible response of No Opinion, which is not used very often, but when they do use it they also refund the fees. You paid for an opinion as to the authenticity, and you got one that said they could not verify it as being authentic. You got what you paid for.

This ↑

 

 

 

No opinion was offered. A non-opinion is not an opinion.

[MarkFeld]

Typically the TPG's will not come right out and say a coin is a fake unless it is blatantly obvious. Instead they typically say something like questionable authenticity or authenticity questionable. (In this case authenticity unverifiable.) It is still a fake in their opinion, they just don't put it in those words. They also have a possible response of No Opinion, which is not used very often, but when they do use it they also refund the fees. You paid for an opinion as to the authenticity, and you got one that said they could not verify it as being authentic. You got what you paid for.

This ↑

 

 

 

No opinion was offered. A non-opinion is not an opinion.

 

Agreed.

[Nutmeg Coin]

It is impossible to know the facts of the case as presented from "carneyman". One post without evidence. I have gotten "questionable authenticity" but not the sort of vague characterization as he said NGC gave him.

 

By the way for the least expensive submissions not through a dealer, which I have helped people do at cost, people can pay the ANA membership fee without mag. and submit directly.

[Conder101]

I have gotten "questionable authenticity" but not the sort of vague characterization as he said NGC gave him.

Personally I find "Authenticity unverifiable" to be a stronger statement than the "Questionable Authenticity" that they normally use.

 

To me it says that the authenticity of the piece CAN NOT be verified as authentic. While the other one seems to indicate that there is some question as to whether or not it is authentic.

[MarkFeld]

I have gotten "questionable authenticity" but not the sort of vague characterization as he said NGC gave him.

Personally I find "Authenticity unverifiable" to be a stronger statement than the "Questionable Authenticity" that they normally use.

 

To me it says that the authenticity of the piece CAN NOT be verified as authentic. While the other one seems to indicate that there is some question as to whether or not it is authentic.

 

OK, so you feel that "Authenticity unverifiable" is a stronger statement than "Questionable Authenticity" (which indicates there is some question as to whether or not it is authentic). Then wouldn't the former mean that there is very little chance, at most, that the item is thought to be authentic? They should either be clear in their language/determination or not charge a fee for the non-opinion.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I have gotten "questionable authenticity" but not the sort of vague characterization as he said NGC gave him.

Personally I find "Authenticity unverifiable" to be a stronger statement than the "Questionable Authenticity" that they normally use.

 

To me it says that the authenticity of the piece CAN NOT be verified as authentic. While the other one seems to indicate that there is some question as to whether or not it is authentic.

 

Mr. Conder, consider:

 

Unverifiable: not objective or easily verified.

 

Unverified: not having been confirmed substantiated or proven to be true.

 

Questionable authenticity is quite different from unverifiable authenticity.

 

Language is language.

 

No opinion, of any nature, consistent with the TPG business model was offered by the TPG. Return all the money the submitter paid.

 

It is not helpful to the TPG or future business to have this be an issue at all.

In my opinion, it is dumb to let the situation fester.

[Afterword]

If it is a known fact that some counterfeit coins are impossible to confidently differentiate from the genuine article and the same effort and expense is utilized to make this determination as would be the case in determining genuine or counterfeit, I would not expect my money to be refunded.

 

I would also consider it to be an honest opinion, as to authenticity. I would not want them to flip a coin to make the determination or return my money. The truth would suffice.

 

 

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Here's what the head cheese ATS said about this matter...so good luck sending them there.

 

"Questionable authenticity" means our opinion is in the range of "we're pretty sure it's counterfeit" to "we're absolutely sure it's counterfeit", usually the later. For legal reasons, we do not say "counterfeit." "Refund, no decision" means we are either not sure, or the coin is too messed up (super harshly cleaned or really dirty, etc.) to tell for sure one way or the other. Quote from PCGS hrh

 

In my opinion, submitting 5 raw Trade Dollars at the same time, is a 'red flag' in it's self.